Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Rocl]

GUYS WTF WHY DONT I GET TO SEE THE GRIPS ON MY WEAPON WHEN I EQUIP THEM WTF

[Pergo]

crazy speculation but.....

WHM jse grip: Cure Spells = Conserve MP+10
they said awhile back they wanted to give whm an edge in mainhealing over rdm... this grip would provide a significant reduction of mp cost, especially if stacked with /blm.

[ACEJester]

Interested to see how well this helps sam.... damn w/ soboro haste set and haste.... followed by rng sub. <Excitement>

ditto. I can't wait to get ahold of these and do some testing with SAM/RNG and SAM/WAR.

I'll try to get some pre adjustment numbers on some set mobs (possibly trolls), then do the same test after the adjustment and see what kind of difference I can pick up.

[LD]

And is it too much to hope that Square will get confused while working on weapon skills and make Savage Blade suck less?

Impossible, then BLU self-SC would be that much more awesome.
That's almost as bad as giving BLU Swift Blade.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

No way would SE make a 5 hit 2h weapon skill crit varies with TP. Notice the only multi hti crit ws are the 1 handed ones? Because they were meant to balance out the difference between 1h ws and 2h ws(although 1h win out usually). Penta Thrust witha crit mod would do 1.7k-2.8k easy. Think of Rampage with a 93 damage axe.

It'd be feasible for say Skewer or Impulse Drive, but on Penta, it would be broken. Besides Penta is a 2.5x damage mod at 300% TP which is nice in merit parties if you store 150% TP on you and your wyvern, then spirit surge+penta for 2k+.
The least I could see them doing for Penta is increasing the base damage rate at 100% and 200% from 0.75 and 1.00 to 1.00 and 1.50 respectively and increasing the STR/DEX mod.

Wheeling Thrust definetly needs a boost. My Wheeliung Thrust as /THF with hedgehog pie, flame gorget and 75+67 STR does 540-700 on most HNM, whereas an average SAM/THF with +50ish STR can crank out 1.2k Gekkos on most HNM. Wheeling Thrust needs a 2.0 damage modifier and STR_50%_DEX_50%. They need to increase the amount of defense ignored. There's no reason why a WS that "ignores defense" ought to be out done by a WS that does no ignore defense, on a high defense enemy.

Basically the most logical and reasonable changes for DRG's endgame weapon skills would be:

Penta Thrust: Up the damage mod at 100% TP from 0.75x to 1.00x, 200%TP from 1.00x to 1.50x, and up the attribute modifier from STR_20% DEX_20% to STR_35% DEX_35%.

Skewer: Make it Chance of critical hit varies with TP.

Wheeling Thrust: Increase the 1.75x mod to 2.0x mod. STR_50% DEX_50%
and sharply increase the amount of defense ignored.

Impulse Drive: Make it a one hit WS.(Easy since there are one-hit ws that appear to be multi hit(i.e Seraph Blade,Viper Bite,Vorpal Thrust,Relic WSs) STR_50% DEX_50% and 3.0x mod, like Steel Cyclone please.

[kuronosan]

Yea, heaven forbid the day that warriors everywhere cry because a DRG outdamaged them in a party.

[Arkanna]

http://www.legacyofold.com/images/gmoneygrip.png

<3 MS PAINT

[Quizno]

As cool as it would be for "-3% delay" to stack with the other haste, I don't think SE would break the game like that.

the -3% grip is Lv55 so it is likely that there will be grips that are more powerful in the same area.

Say there is a Lv70 grip with -5% delay:

That will push you up to 98.3% territory, and anything higher than that starts getting into the rediculous numbers that are associated with approaching infinity. This greatly over powers BZ. I mean, like way more powerful than KC, lol. Getting high enough, it becomes "possible" theorhetically to solo vrtra....

On top of that, current speculation is that there is something else limiting hits beyond haste.

It could be a maximum swing rate over time that is over and above the 8 swings per round cap.

I'm willing to bet that the negative delay will be calculated before haste. It will still help, but it won't change zerging all that much.

[fantasticdan]

And is it too much to hope that Square will get confused while working on weapon skills and make Savage Blade suck less?

Impossible, then BLU self-SC would be that much more awesome.
That's almost as bad as giving BLU Swift Blade.

Yeah, because merit party blus are outparsing everyone with self-scs right?

[SeraphusRagnarok]

If 100% Haste= attack infinitly, does 100% Slow= never attack?

I'm curious about Full Heca + Stage 1Relic Weapon + Massacre Elegy + Slow

[divisortheory]

If 100% Haste= attack infinitly, does 100% Slow= never attack?

No, and Delay of 0 doesn't mean attacking infinitely, lol. >.>

[Quizno]

Really? What does it mean?

Obviously, as has been stated, there are other factors limiting attacks that haven't been fully recognized yet.

But barring that, what would 0 delay mean?

[Amele]

As cool as it would be for "-3% delay" to stack with the other haste, I don't think SE would break the game like that.

the -3% grip is Lv55 so it is likely that there will be grips that are more powerful in the same area.

Say there is a Lv70 grip with -5% delay:

That will push you up to 98.3% territory, and anything higher than that starts getting into the rediculous numbers that are associated with approaching infinity. This greatly over powers BZ. I mean, like way more powerful than KC, lol. Getting high enough, it becomes "possible" theorhetically to solo vrtra....

On top of that, current speculation is that there is something else limiting hits beyond haste.

It could be a maximum swing rate over time that is over and above the 8 swings per round cap.

I'm willing to bet that the negative delay will be calculated before haste. It will still help, but it won't change zerging all that much.

isn't the ~93% already representing another cap?

I mean: 40% SV march + 15% haste + 20% gear => 70% (haste cap)
+15% DB + 10% hasso = 95% .. so I guess 93% could be rounding errors but at that speed 95 vs 93 should be pretty dramatic. (and easy to check by dequipping the +march instrument for one test).


as for 100% slow, this would be delay = delay * (1-haste) -> delay * (1- (-1) ) = 2 * delay : 100% slow means you attack at half speed.

(the other way to calculate this is to assume that haste adjusts the number of 'frames' that pass per tic of the RTC, in which case the function is delay = delay / (60 * (1+haste) ) where 100% haste means you attack 'twice' as fast, and 100% slow means you never attack. but given the behavior of weapons at even moderate levels of haste it's pretty clear that the calculation is the first method I listed.)

edit: I believe a delay of '0' is actually force rounded to a delay of '1' (assuming there isn't a delay floor somewhere in the 10-20 range?)
which would translate as: attack 60 times per second.

[Izzy]

If 100% Haste= attack infinitly, does 100% Slow= never attack?

No, and Delay of 0 doesn't mean attacking infinitely, lol. >.>

OH GOD, I can see forever-ever-ever-ever-er-er-er

[SeraphusRagnarok]

But Haste+50% is proven to doubles your attack speed, so why would Slow 100% half your attack speed. I dont get it.

[divisortheory]

Really? What does it mean?

It means basically Hundred Fists speed. Haste+100% means Weapon Delay-100% means Weapon Delay=0 --> Hundred Fists speed.

[Quizno]

I mean: 40% SV march + 15% haste + 20% gear => 70% (haste cap)

No, that would equal 63.3% haste.

SV March + haste = 43.3% not 55%.

You then add that to 20% (or whatever number up to the 25% equipment cap)

[divisortheory]

But Haste+50% is proven to doubles your attack speed, so why would Slow 100% half your attack speed. I dont get it.

DLY is your weapon delay.

Haste +50% --> DLY x (1-0.5) --> .5DLY
Slow +100% --> DLY x (1+1.0) --> 2DLY

DLY / .5DLY = 2, hence your attack speed was doubled with Haste+50%

DLY / 2DLY = .5, hence your attack speed was halved with Slow+100%

[SeraphusRagnarok]

Damn I'm bad at Math. I just assumed it worked the same way, except opposite :/

[Amele]

But Haste+50% is proven to doubles your attack speed, so why would Slow 100% half your attack speed. I dont get it.

(I really thought this was intuitive, but ok )

here: delay = 450 (samurai)
haste: 50%

delay = delay * (1 - haste) => 450 * (0.5) = 225

225/450 = 1/2 (so you go twice as fast.)
-----------------------------------------------
slow = 100% (haste = -100%)

delay = delay * (1 - haste) => 450 * (2) = 900

900/450 = 2 (so you go half as fast.)



tl;dr : math is why it works this way *shrugs*