Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Carnusty]

Because 600-1000 TP-less damage every 45 seconds (more damage over time and damage per TP than any other job minus BLM)

sorry but i grew quite tired of academic arguments like "but hey it's TP free! hate free!". i'd prefer to have to care about hate and do damages of some relevance; more, who needs TP free in a burn party, nyzul or any other event where mobs are slain one after the other?
as already stated, SMN isn't fun now because it simply can't come up with the action. you mentioned "every 45 sec" but I should add "taking 10 seconds to do so" which is the main point here.

What? Damage of some relevance? >_> Name another job that can do 600+ damage per minute without shooting themselves in the ass for doing so - BLU probably comes the closest, as Toth said, but they're limited by their Chain Affinity timer and I rarely see a SATA Cannonball go over 1k unless they're getting Minne songs (which takes up an extra party slot - a SMN doesn't need a BRD!), so SMN is still better in terms of efficiency.

I'll give it to you that SAM can do more damage than a SMN, sure, and if it were 1 versus 1 I'd take SAM first on most HNMs - but in terms of long, controlled fights I'd rather have 5 SMNs than 5 SAMs. Hour-long Tiamats that don't TP are much less headache than hour-long ones where tanks have to worry about getting two-shotted by a Double Attack because the SAMs are meleeing during Mighty Strikes and getting everyone's shadows taken off by Tebbad Wing.

I think the original person to complain about SMN was talking about EXPing SMN as opposed to HNMing. There's a major difference between SMN1-74 and SMN75. SMN in exp as of now is quite similar to BLM, not worth the time/MP to be a good DD in exp, no one wants to party with them...but they all want them in their HNM fights.

[BRP]

I can't believe you're bitching about SMN, which has probably gotten the most toys since RoZ release, about being 'stale'.

Those toys are usually useless in regards to changing SMN to be a better support in exp. Well Fenrir and Diabolos do have some great buffing BPs, but it obviously wasn't enough.

[LD]

I can't believe you're bitching about SMN, which has probably gotten the most toys since RoZ release, about being 'stale'.

You're surprised?
They ask for new JSE when they already have austere. They get Yin Yang, they ask for 'real' JSE. They get the SC/MB change and the Rage/Ward split and say their job is stale. All the while bitching for more powerful gear, increased damage and endurance in their summons, and new Avatars. Out of the 18 jobs they are, without a doubt, the most self-absorbed (though BRDs are still the most spoiled.)

Red Mages may be a bit power hungry, but SE lied about their job description, so their desire to be an actual Jack-Of-All-Trades is to be expected. What they just have to remember is, even Blue Mages, the True Jack-Of-All-Trades, have limitations, and there are things a RDM can do that a BLU could never do (for now. :d)

I am truly happy for DRGs, DRKs, SAMs, and especially GA WARs. Every Job's best weapon should be their highest ranked weapon, no exceptions. Being forced to use swords and clubs and the optimal form of damage is an insult and I hope this change will help to at least lessen their superiority.

I say this as a Monk...
Who knows Damn Well...
He will get nothing.....

[Toth]

You're surprised?
They ask for new JSE when they already have austere. They get Yin Yang, they ask for 'real' JSE. They get the SC/MB change and the Rage/Ward split and say their job is stale. All the while bitching for more powerful gear, increased damage and endurance in their summons, and new Avatars. Out of the 18 jobs they are, without a doubt, the most self-absorbed (though BRDs are still the most spoiled.)

Yeah, because SMN is such a desired exp member >.> If you look carefully at some of these 'whines', you'd see that most are concerned with making SMNs more effecient in exping and meritting. The job is fine on HNMs and such, but take them out of that scene and you'll see their usefulness really lag behind other jobs.

edit: and when I meant 'stale', I was referring to avatar selection. It's been almost 18 month since we got Diabolos.

[LD]

That's your balance. You're undesired in exp and rule in HNM. You somehow make it to 75, so it's not like it's impossible. Deal with it. I'll be over here, competing with 50,000 people for the same gear, role, and position.

[Toth]

But how does this make SMNs self-absorbed? Just because we want to contribute a bit more to an exp party when our current job limitations make that difficult? There's a reason I havent meritted or exped my SMN since last year. No one wants us and Astralburns, far and in between, top out at 7k an hr.

BTW Wanting more gear is a universal desire in this game so its nothing unique to the SMN community. Austere gear is decent but only the head and body are of real use.

[BRP]

That's your balance. You're undesired in exp and rule in HNM.

This is not balanced at all.

[LD]

Because you prattle on and on and on about the same shit day in and day out. Alexander, Odin, "oh, this piece is good, but it's not great", 'I've never get Bahamut's staff.' Waaah waah waaaah. Your hateless damage makes you superior to even the most powerful mages in the game. It may only be at the end game....


BUT THAT'S ALL THAT FUCKING MATTERS.

Any black sheep, outcast, gimp, nub, dipshit can make it to 75, what matters is how well you do when you get there, and you have that tied up even with the most basic of gear. Your buffs were improved to the point they many of them are actually on par with BRD songs. Your offensive accuracy, power, and flexibility have been given great improvements. Yin-yang probably has the most bonuses in a single piece of a equipment for one job. And with all this you still bitch. Bitch. BITCH about unimportant shit like exping and new Avatars. I'm not sure if you're blind or simply fools, but you don't care to even wonder if you SHOULD get anything else. That...is being self-absorbed. Compare that to the most powerful Melee in the game....and the fact that they only ask for a shitty set of JSE.

[BRP]

LD IS GETTIN' ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

I'm not even going to read that.

New avatars and JSE probably wouldn't do shit for SMNs. Well, perhaps it'll help a little, but nothing will change.

In my opinion SMNs should be Support with occasional spike damage throw into the mix. Maybe if SE could be generous and let SMNs also be DoT with keeping their avatars out, but really, all SMNs need to be able to do is fill the spot a RDM, COR, or BRD does. To do this, abilities like Crimson Howl and Rolling Thunder need to actually be useful enough, and they need some sort of Refresh BP(I say remove that useless Shock Spikes ability and give Ramuh a Ballad II BP). On top of this, they could also use a job ability that allows them to make up for the MP they lose while having an avatar out.

Make current avatars useful, don't add a new one until SMN actually reaches it's potential.

[Damane]

Are you somehow trying to say that those advantages are not huge, or something? >.>

Those advantages are exactly why our LS always use WHMs for main heals in the tank party, up to 2 of them in the tank party. RDM absolutely cannot compete with WHM when it comes to curing in a tank party of the alliance. I try to avoid using Cure IV unless I need to, the big hate spike isn't very nice, but WHMs can just toss out Cure Vs to heal for absurd amounts and take very little hate in return. They can have Regen II or III assisting them, their Shellra V and enhanced magic defense barspells cut down a ton of damage, they have divine veil, devotion to restore MP to the tanks, benediction is instant, cures for a huge amount and removes status ailments.... am I missing anything else?

Maybe its better if you look at it from the other point of view. RDMs have MP endurance because of refresh and Convert. But all the MP in the world is useless if you can't main heal the tank party for long periods of time and stay as low as possible on the monster's hate list. RDMs also have other stuff to do, like enfeebles (Slow II is super on Tiamat, for example), haste, refresh, dispel, Dia II, maybe secondary duties like stunning (with /DRK)... we're not concerned much with main healing the tanks, to be honest :D

If you're talking about merit parties... then are you saying that you want WHMs to have the top main healing slot in HNM fights, and also compete with RDMs when it comes to MP endurance? Hmm.

I totally agree that we are the king in cureing in terms of HNM fights and master of magical defense. But most of our precious abilitys that set us up are from merits. shellra V devotion etc come from merits. If you would look back before theese categorie 2 merits were introduced whm had only his superior cure V regens and the barspell (WITH actual gear you had to get) that were better then rdm.

But looking right now how tanks evolved from pld/war nin/war to nin/drk pld/nin hate machines, and the fact that you even dont need to cure that much pld/nins (if at all) I could imagine very well that a rdm with enough -enmity gear could handle mainhealing very good and close to the point as good as whm. Whm clearly needs to evolve more and stand on his own more far away, because right now whm and rdm seem to be sister and brother, with rdm beeing the more powerfull brother in the family. My point is that some changes/addition should be made so that whm is as far off to rdm as blm is. A rdm has also lots of spells a blm has, but they never can reach the power of a blm even closely, while when compareing with whm, rdm comes pritty close. Giving whm some more unique magic defense spells and changeing the healing magic skill in such a way that the skill realy matters in terms of cureing per MP ratio, would even out this situation and bring whm to the point where blm is now when compared to a rdm.

[Ryko]

Those toys are usually useless in regards to changing SMN to be a better support in exp.

Change jobs for the situation and stop bitching, you have something you excel at at least. Of all the jobs in the game to bitch about shit getting old, smns really need to just shut the fuck up already. "Well we're not as good at exp"

[Therin]

Ryko do you like my new sig?

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9...ground1ps7.jpg

<3

[Ryko]

Saying you're a DRK as opposed to a PLD is like saying I'm a THF as opposed to anything else.

[Therin]

Saying you're a DRK as opposed to a PLD is like saying I'm a THF as opposed to anything else.

Yeah I know, but it works better for the sake of the picture. At least it's true for the other two, really.

[Sagacious Sundi]

Because you prattle on and on and on about the same shit day in and day out. Alexander, Odin, "oh, this piece is good, but it's not great", 'I've never get Bahamut's staff.' Waaah waah waaaah. Your hateless damage makes you superior to even the most powerful mages in the game. It may only be at the end game....


BUT THAT'S ALL THAT FUCKING MATTERS.

Any black sheep, outcast, gimp, nub, dipshit can make it to 75, what matters is how well you do when you get there, and you have that tied up even with the most basic of gear. Your buffs were improved to the point they many of them are actually on par with BRD songs. Your offensive accuracy, power, and flexibility have been given great improvements. Yin-yang probably has the most bonuses in a single piece of a equipment for one job. And with all this you still bitch. Bitch. BITCH about unimportant shit like exping and new Avatars. I'm not sure if you're blind or simply fools, but you don't care to even wonder if you SHOULD get anything else. That...is being self-absorbed. Compare that to the most powerful Melee in the game....and the fact that they only ask for a shitty set of JSE.

I'm taking it you think SE designing another summonable avatar is a waste of time (because it isn't needed)...yet designing a set of armor that's not even intended to be useful isn't? Sure, an avatar is bigger than armor, but let's not forget that there already is someone with animations and whatnot (Odin). It could be total shit, but maybe they'll give it for the sake of shineyness, just like your town armor that you want.

What I do want as a SMN is just something to balance the amount of non-merit BPs between Carby and the others. I suggested the idea of "Refracting Ruby" which would be a static Invisiblra/Sneakra/Deodorizga.

[Nirokun!]

i have whm, blm, smn, and blu at 75

i dont think its absurd to ask that smn should get something that makes it more attractive to events like einherjar/limbus/etc where quick, constant dmg is necessary.

before you spout dmg without hate/tp, blu can SACATA cannonball, then light of penance/feather tickle the TP away, hell, even that -enmity brd song lol

just because smn does something well (not fast, lol), doesnt mean that its ok to be useless elsewhere.

why does it hurt other people so much when a smn asks to be more useful? people seem happy that SE is on the trend of buffing jobs, why is smn different? if you're a smn, or if your LS has smn(s), you benefit from any beneficial changes

[Ryko]

before you spout dmg without hate/tp, blu can SACATA cannonball, then light of penance/feather tickle the TP away, hell, even that -enmity brd song lol

... lol

Ok for one, they lose damage if they take a -enmity song as opposed to something to boost defense or vitality, secondly there's a significant difference between reducing the enmity of something and the action producing no enmity at all. Secondly you'd have to assume the tickle or penance wont get resisted (at all) on anything where you'd worry about TP gain to begin with. It's in no way the same, and it's easy to spout the uselessness of it when you're the only DD in the game it applies to, the second my DRK or SAM can bitch khim for up to 1k damage, not get the shit kicked out of me for doing too much, and reliably damage it while it only does 3 weapon skills (none of which are fulm) from 30 to dead I'll be willing to throw you a bone but a DRK or SAM's are not exactly going to be bathing in the EXP invites either and they dont have that benefit otherwise.

[Deftscythe]

There is no job that excels at every aspect of the game the way some of the people in this thread seem to think Smn should.

[Nirokun!]

before you spout dmg without hate/tp, blu can SACATA cannonball, then light of penance/feather tickle the TP away, hell, even that -enmity brd song lol

... lol

Ok for one, they lose damage if they take a -enmity song as opposed to something to boost defense or vitality, secondly there's a significant difference between reducing the enmity of something and the action producing no enmity at all. Secondly you'd have to assume the tickle or penance wont get resisted (at all) on anything where you'd worry about TP gain to begin with. It's in no way the same, and it's easy to spout the uselessness of it when you're the only DD in the game it applies to.

if they TA it, they dont lose dmg? lol the song is for the TPdown spells

BPs produce enmity, see why smn's dont solo kite with BPs

idk if its a great example, but i had no issue landing penance/tickle on ul'yovras, and i casted them on their timers until the mob was dead (with just nin TP/WS dmg, and blu/nin TP dmg) and was resisted (or didnt see it land, or the mob turned) once with Light of Penance (and i have no macc merits, just nashira)

and true, smn's BP dmg is TP~less, but "on anything where you'd worry about TP gain to begin with", you assault and BP your avatar at the very cusp of the pet command range, then run back out of AoE. upon coming within range of the mob, the avatar generally strikes the monster once (or more, depending on how fast/slow your smn is at slapping on rage gear and issuing the BP command.)

and it's easy to spout the uselessness of it when you're not the DD in the game it applies to

personally, i dont assault my avatars (when i get to come on smn) on any mob (that i can think of) other than khimaira. i take my little butt, with my capped stoneskin, stand next to tiamat, and wait for tiamat to drop from the air so i can do 3PClaws before she flies again

edit: added the bit about no macc merits

[LD]

Giving SMNs a new avatar is more than just a waste of time. It's giving them a powerful tool they probably don't need. Giving MNK a shitty JSE is giving them a useless toy they know they don't need, but it would be the first real new thing we've gotten since Subtle Blow (and, ideally, better town wear than the various pieces of optimal gear. Looks like an elephant painted some of it.) Penance is the only thing that changed what we're able to do by any significant amount, but it doesn't change Chi Blast's use in HNM, it's just as meager and/or situational as Subtle Blow, and all it changes in exp is that instead of using it to pull we use it....to pull. The last major change SMN had was the Rage/Ward split in October. That, with the accompanying SMN skill change, gave a large amount of added power and flexibility to a job that was already one of the best in HNM. The last major changes to MNK were in July and December of 2003 when they lowered Chakra's recast to 5 minutes from 15 and raised the level cap to allow use of Utsu:Ni, respectively. Even with that, the job has been exactly the same practically since it was created.

So there is a slight difference between giving MNK a new JSE we probably wont use and giving SMN a new avatar they most definitely will.

Earth and Water, bitches. A token offering....Unfortunately....


THIS IS S-E!! *Kick*