Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[deivi]

There is no job that excels at every aspect of the game

hi2u BRD, NIN, RDM, WAR

[Therin]

you assault and BP your avatar at the very cusp of the pet command range, then run back out of AoE. upon coming within range of the mob, the avatar generally strikes the monster once (or more, depending on how fast/slow your smn is at slapping on rage gear and issuing the BP command.)

Yeah, Assaulting is stupid. Period. Especially on a wyrm.

There is no job that excels at every aspect of the game

hi2u BRD, NIN, RDM, WAR

WAR pretty much sucks for HNMs unless you're doing that old WAR/WHM tanking nonsense (don't).

You can tank sub NIN but you can't dual-wield axes because you'd feed it too much TP so if you're not going to melee then just get a fucking NIN. You can sub THF and do strong WSes but you're going to have to melee again because you have no form of TP regain, and if you do sub SAM so that you don't your WSes blow ass.

So it looks like it's good for Fafhogg because it has TP regen and Aspid because you make darkness, but this stuff is a joke anyway.

[deivi]

There is no job that excels at every aspect of the game

hi2u BRD, NIN, RDM, WAR

WAR pretty much sucks for HNMs unless you're doing that old WAR/WHM tanking nonsense (don't).

You can tank sub NIN but you can't dual-wield axes because you'd feed it too much TP so if you're not going to melee then just get a fucking NIN.

wasnt talking about tanking at all

You can sub THF and do strong WSes but you're going to have to melee again because you have no form of TP regain, and if you do sub SAM so that you don't your WSes blow ass.

all wyrms have adds to tp off of, and since we're talking about usefull engame timmy is even better since lower lv adds are around. yea Ill give you Cerb and Kimmy I guess

So it looks like it's good for Fafhogg because it has TP regen and Aspid because you make darkness, but this stuff is a joke anyway.

since it dosent look like faf will be taking a backseat to other HNM anytime soon, I stand by keeping WAR on the 'good for all aspects' job list

[Evelyn]

You can't say melee jobs have never been thrown bones vs. a mage job. Very rarely does a mage get decent new gear (yingyang, duelist hat, whatever) while I've seen a lot of very nice gear come out for melees. Hell look at salvage, mnk/sam/nin/pup got arguably the best set (granted rdm got morrigan robe, an actually useful refresh piece beyond extra mp, but the rest of the set is only marginally better than what we have) Ace's helm with evade for a hat, shoes that make 6-hit setups for sam a fuckton easier, plus acc and attack, all for one less % haste than fumas, and a body piece that gives mnk as close to hauby as they can wear, with +evade and even more store tp to boot. And thats not good?

Yes, the core of mnk, and half the other melee jobs, hasn't changed. But MNKs have the ability to deal so much damage over time that they don't NEED anything new. A decently geared MNK with destroyers, an easy to obtain weapon, can rival and even beat out a WAR with a ridill, THE most desired weapon in the game.

However, mages can't do the same thing. Purely new gear, while always desired, is like giving melees nothing but armor. Mages need new spells, abilities, etc to see a real change, or even addition, to their job. Sure, extra refresh pieces and macro gear helps make what we have more effective, but barring new spells, the jobs get stale.

Sure RDM got some things, especially with merits, but it wasn't much compared to other jobs. RDM got some marginally better tier 2 enfeebles that cost 3-6x as much MP, and Phalanx 2 thats arguably useless now for most of what RDM does. WHM got Devotion (granted its 15 minute timer, but its the best HNM MP management ability short of a refresh job), BLM got tier 2 AM (a decent improvement to be sure, but it wasn't groundbreaking), SMN got new BPs, and hell even new complete avatars since the job was released (even if the job is a pariah outside hnm, its still something new for the job, and Diabolos did add a long range attack that finally helped on flying mobs), and BRD gets hate management songs now.

Hell, I'm all for giving any job new toys, even if they're as minor as the Drain II/spikes boost DRK got. However, for as long as this game has been out, I think SE can spare RDM, along with other neglected jobs, a bone or two. i know RDM is well off, and like I said I'm not asking for the same, groundbreaking changes jobs like DRG and BST need. But a new set of spells would be a good change.

And yes I have other jobs. And yes, after my last post I realized the "refresh" part, contemplating changing it, but left it for the lulz.

[Toth]

Look, all I want for SMN is to better serve any exp/merit party. That isn't being whiny. I'm quite happy with the job as is. True, good SMNs can work any role they are given but the job's MP limitations does hurt. Just a small change here or there will be welcome.

A point I was trying to make however did get lost in this argument: the emergence of BLU as a top tier DD on high HNMs and its effect on SMN's status. Yes BLUs get hate from their spells but Cannonball gives very little TP to the mobs and Zephyr Mantle is somewhat reliable in negating damage if you pull hate. TA also helps to keep hate on the tanks, who shouldn't be losing hate anyway to the spike damage of a BLU (its often now more than a BLM's nuke and they cannot TA it back on the PLDs anyway). These factors have been making bringing my BLU to these HNMs more enticing than SMN lately. But I will never give up SMN.

[Naygor]

Did someone really complain about rdm not getting enough when it was damn near broken before tier 2 merits and try to cite blm as a job that got something better? My head's about to asploode from such a dumb statement.

[evilpaul]

I can't believe you're bitching about SMN, which has probably gotten the most toys since RoZ release, about being 'stale'.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8530/armorgetlq4.png
Yeah, you're right. The Yigit Set they gave us was great. For sitting on your ass healing MP. The Goliard set was great if you have the whole thing and are having a -ga3 cast on you, I guess. The Marduk's set is by far the most highly sought after of the Salvage gear. And one can't forget the devastation of a Claustrum wielding Summoner against Giant Bees and Tiny Mandragoras everywhere.

SMN hasn't gotten significantly stronger in at least two years while other jobs have gotten pimped out with new gear, spells, and JAs.

You're surprised?
They ask for new JSE when they already have austere. They get Yin Yang, they ask for 'real' JSE. They get the SC/MB change and the Rage/Ward split and say their job is stale. All the while bitching for more powerful gear, increased damage and endurance in their summons, and new Avatars. Out of the 18 jobs they are, without a doubt, the most self-absorbed (though BRDs are still the most spoiled.)

Is this a long version of the MNK has no JSE whine, or are you saying that SMNs should be grateful for the mediocre Austere set which the only worthwhile pieces of which are the Body and Head. The body of course is only slightly better than the Yinyang Robe you later mentioned which leaves pretty much just the fugly hat at 75. The hat, of course, isn't much better than the AF horn and isn't as good as the relic horn.

Because you prattle on and on and on about the same shit day in and day out. Alexander, Odin, "oh, this piece is good, but it's not great", 'I've never get Bahamut's staff.' Waaah waah waaaah. Your hateless damage makes you superior to even the most powerful mages in the game. It may only be at the end game....


BUT THAT'S ALL THAT FUCKING MATTERS.

Any black sheep, outcast, gimp, nub, dipshit can make it to 75, what matters is how well you do when you get there, and you have that tied up even with the most basic of gear. Your buffs were improved to the point they many of them are actually on par with BRD songs. Your offensive accuracy, power, and flexibility have been given great improvements. Yin-yang probably has the most bonuses in a single piece of a equipment for one job. And with all this you still bitch. Bitch. BITCH about unimportant shit like exping and new Avatars. I'm not sure if you're blind or simply fools, but you don't care to even wonder if you SHOULD get anything else. That...is being self-absorbed. Compare that to the most powerful Melee in the game....and the fact that they only ask for a shitty set of JSE.

Refresh my memory, please. What is "endgame" again?

It seems to me that "endgame" = Tiamat, because that's the only fucking thing anyone ever mentions when talking about how zomgwtfbbqpwnage SMN is on all that is endgame. So do tell, what is this shit SMN is so great at besides CoP Wyrms? Nether Blast on kited Kirins? I thought all the good LSes stopped doing that in 2005? (SMNs sure are lucky they don't die doing Tiamat, or they'd have to go EXP it back sooner or later.)

Awesome SMN buffs... Weak Stoneskin that hasn't changed since it was introduced. A 3 shadow Blink. Acc/Eva buffs that are only useful depending on the moonphase. STR+6 or maybe INT+6 depending on the moonphase.

Those big improvements that makes SMNs as powerful as BRDs are three minute Enthunders, Shock Spikes (or Ice Spikes!!!), Hastega (with a shitty tiny radius that requires standing in the midde of whereever you want it to go off), and of course a Warcry effect that with all the Summoning Magic skill+ gear currently in the game you might be able to get to last two minutes so you can use one of those other awesome buffs with it too.

Wow, that's overwhelming. I'll switch to SMN and put up a search comment saying "Fuck BRDS! I can give you Enthunder and Warcry!" and watch the invites flood my log.

[Naygor]

Simple solution: Just don't play smn.

[Sekkite]

Those toys are usually useless in regards to changing SMN to be a better support in exp.

Change jobs for the situation and stop bitching, you have something you excel at at least. Of all the jobs in the game to bitch about shit getting old, smns really need to just shut the fuck up already. "Well we're not as good at exp"

Playing devil's advocate, but some people care about merit points. But hell, who needs those when you can camp FireCrystalWyrm a.k.a. Tiamat?

[Naygor]

Unless your only 75 job is pup I'd be willing to merit with just about any ls member. I'd assume any other decent ls would have people that do the same thing.

[Ryko]

I can't believe you're bitching about SMN, which has probably gotten the most toys since RoZ release, about being 'stale'.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8530/armorgetlq4.png
Yeah, you're right. The Yigit Set they gave us was great. For sitting on your ass healing MP. The Goliard set was great if you have the whole thing and are having a -ga3 cast on you, I guess. The Marduk's set is by far the most highly sought after of the Salvage gear. And one can't forget the devastation of a Claustrum wielding Summoner against Giant Bees and Tiny Mandragoras everywhere.

A set of gear whose only unique bonus is something a monk already accomplishes with existing gear already, just shut up.

Refresh my memory, please. What is "endgame" again?

It seems to me that "endgame" = Tiamat, because that's the only fucking thing anyone ever mentions when talking about how zomgwtfbbqpwnage SMN is on all that is endgame. So do tell, what is this shit SMN is so great at besides CoP Wyrms? Nether Blast on kited Kirins? I thought all the good LSes stopped doing that in 2005? (SMNs sure are lucky they don't die doing Tiamat, or they'd have to go EXP it back sooner or later.)

Of the 6 mobs that are actively sought after, a SMN provides its unique type of damage to 3 of them. You're telling me that you can't understand how a SMN stands apart on Khim and Cerb? You honestly can't be so blind.

Wow, that's overwhelming. I'll switch to SMN and put up a search comment saying "Fuck BRDS! I can give you Enthunder and Warcry!" and watch the invites flood my log.

You're not meant to replace a bard, why would you ever presume to do so regardless of what they give SMNs. Last I checked you can't elegy.

Playing devil's advocate, but some people care about merit points. But hell, who needs those when you can camp FireCrystalWyrm a.k.a. Tiamat?

Play another job then and stop bitching.

[Sekkite]

Play another job then and stop bitching.

I'm not bitching. Take your misguided angst elsewhere.

[Ryko]

Play another job then and stop bitching.

I'm not bitching. Take your misguided angst elsewhere.

How am I the one angsting? We have whiny bitches who play a job that theyre complaining can't do everything as well as the best jobs for the situation. NINs lost their tank throne ages ago, WARs do jack and shit out of Fafhogg and dynamis/limbus, monks are EXP and salvage junkies. The only jobs that are good for practically everything are the 3 main specialized supportive roles, and that's a duh. Some jobs are more suited for some things than others, they should summon a rainbow bridge and get over it.

[Sekkite]

Play another job then and stop bitching.

I'm not bitching. Take your misguided angst elsewhere.

How am I the one angsting? We have whiny bitches who play a job that theyre complaining can't do everything as well as the best jobs for the situation. NINs lost their tank throne ages ago, WARs do jack and shit out of Fafhogg and dynamis/limbus, monks are EXP and salvage junkies. Some jobs are more suited for some things than others, get the fuck over it.

You're lashing out at anyone who brings up an opposing viewpoint. I was just playing devil's advocate. I personally don't care much about the whole thing. I originally levelled a crappy meriting job so I levelled up a good one right after it.

[Ryko]

My issue with the devil's advocate point is that it provided no extra angle to the discussion.

"Smns want to be good at exp too"

"Tough shit, play another job if you wanna exp that bad"

"Well to play devil's advocate, some people like to exp"

"... k and?"

[Naygor]

To play devil's advocate, some people like to make stupid arguments and then get defensive when people call them out.

[Sekkite]

My issue with the devil's advocate point is that it provided no extra angle to the discussion.

"Smns want to be good at exp too"

"Tough shit, play another job if you wanna exp that bad"

"Well to play devil's advocate, some people like to exp"

"... k and?"

You mentioned levelling when exping as summoner was brought up, so I mentioned meriting. I thought it was a valid viewpoint, not that I really think it's one that anyone should put so much focus on. It's not likely that every job will ever be balanced for every aspect of the game. I used to whine and bitch about it all the time, but nowadays I'm doing something about it.

[Lordwafik]

I can't believe you're bitching about SMN, which has probably gotten the most toys since RoZ release, about being 'stale'.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8530/armorgetlq4.png
Yeah, you're right. The Yigit Set they gave us was great. For sitting on your ass healing MP. The Goliard set was great if you have the whole thing and are having a -ga3 cast on you, I guess. The Marduk's set is by far the most highly sought after of the Salvage gear. And one can't forget the devastation of a Claustrum wielding Summoner against Giant Bees and Tiny Mandragoras everywhere.

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/6...utstaffms8.jpg

?

Changing summoning skill to be realistic, changing BP's to take part in skillchains, SMNs being the lone damage source of Wyrms and HNM for a very long time, etc? Just because you get buffed once, it doesn't mean you have to get constantly buffed. PLD was untouched by SE till fairly recently, wheras SMNs got buffed multiple times through CoP and ToaU, wheras MNK got buffed when? Never, Quitcher Bitchin'.

This game has real people behind it, and with real people controlling things, unlike robots, we have behavioural patterns / phases. Look at how music was during the 70's, 80's, 90's, early 2000's, and now. It's constantly changing. The same thing happens with jobs in XI and how things are done, although at a much faster rate. We've been through manaburn era, TP burn era, "drg is an awesome DD" era, and it'll keep changing, so long as there are people behind the players and not robots.

All I can say to people who want to bitch about how they get nothing constantly, is send your best regards to RNG and BSTs, I'm sure they're all fine with what happened to their jobs! Sometimes it's better not to be touched by SE than touched at all (oh how dirty).

Job fads will come and go, and with 18 there trying to reach for the top, don't expect to be there and just eternally bask in it's glory. Once again, remember when BST was a job to be feared?

[evilpaul]

I can't believe you're bitching about SMN, which has probably gotten the most toys since RoZ release, about being 'stale'.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/8530/armorgetlq4.png
Yeah, you're right. The Yigit Set they gave us was great. For sitting on your ass healing MP. The Goliard set was great if you have the whole thing and are having a -ga3 cast on you, I guess. The Marduk's set is by far the most highly sought after of the Salvage gear. And one can't forget the devastation of a Claustrum wielding Summoner against Giant Bees and Tiny Mandragoras everywhere.

A set of gear whose only unique bonus is something a monk already accomplishes with existing gear already, just shut up.

I'm not sure what the preceding sentence means, but it doesn't have shit to do with what I wrote.

Refresh my memory, please. What is "endgame" again?

It seems to me that "endgame" = Tiamat, because that's the only fucking thing anyone ever mentions when talking about how zomgwtfbbqpwnage SMN is on all that is endgame. So do tell, what is this shit SMN is so great at besides CoP Wyrms? Nether Blast on kited Kirins? I thought all the good LSes stopped doing that in 2005? (SMNs sure are lucky they don't die doing Tiamat, or they'd have to go EXP it back sooner or later.)

Of the 6 mobs that are actively sought after, a SMN provides its unique type of damage to 3 of them. You're telling me that you can't understand how a SMN stands apart on Khim and Cerb? You honestly can't be so blind.

Ok, so "Endgame = Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera." Check. It sure is good no SMN has ever died doing Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera or they might want to get EXP back in a decent amount of time.

I'm glad that Assault, Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, etc don't count. Or anything else that one might do in the days between Tiamat pops.

Wow, that's overwhelming. I'll switch to SMN and put up a search comment saying "Fuck BRDS! I can give you Enthunder and Warcry!" and watch the invites flood my log.

You're not meant to replace a bard, why would you ever presume to do so regardless of what they give SMNs. Last I checked you can't elegy.

I'm told that:

Your buffs were improved to the point they many of them are actually on par with BRD songs.

so, I'd assume that one of them did something like what a BRD does. I guess Ecliptic Howl is kind of like Madrigal with no Instrument near a Full Moon? But it wasn't improved recrently, so maybe he meant something else?

http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/6...utstaffms8.jpg

?

Changing summoning skill to be realistic, changing BP's to take part in skillchains, SMNs being the lone damage source of Wyrms and HNM for a very long time, etc? Just because you get buffed once, it doesn't mean you have to get constantly buffed. PLD was untouched by SE till fairly recently, wheras SMNs got buffed multiple times through CoP and ToaU, wheras MNK got buffed when? Never, Quitcher Bitchin'.

Bahumat's Staff is a toy. Lower level BPs have skillchained for quite a while. Avatars can't do L3 SCs. The SMN magic skill doing something change was nice. (It made SMN magic skill like every other skill in the game barring Healing Magic.)

[Ryko]

Ok, so "Endgame = Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera." Check. It sure is good no SMN has ever died doing Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera or they might want to get EXP back in a decent amount of time.

Yeah Im sure that 600 exp or so from using a RR pin and dyin gon the wasy to khim really adds up . And you're retarded, name another job that excels on 4/6 of the sought after end-game mobs (Counting faf here) and can still do a decent job on another (KB) in a damage fashion aside from BLM.