Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Lordwafik]

Ok, so "Endgame = Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera." Check. It sure is good no SMN has ever died doing Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera or they might want to get EXP back in a decent amount of time.

Yeah Im sure that 600 exp or so from using a RR pin and dyin gon the wasy to khim really adds up . And you're retarded, name another job that excels on 4/6 of the sought after end-game mobs (Counting faf here) and can still do a decent job on another (KB) in a damage fashion aside from BLM.

I also don't understand the whole complaining about exp thing. Last I checked when I went to exp @ thje mire, there's always smns ruining my exp by soloing and solo chaining on imps. Also don't be a stranger to ulegard bombs!

[evilpaul]

Ok, so "Endgame = Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera." Check. It sure is good no SMN has ever died doing Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera or they might want to get EXP back in a decent amount of time.

Yeah Im sure that 600 exp or so from using a RR pin and dyin gon the wasy to khim really adds up . And you're retarded, name another job that excels on 4/6 of the sought after end-game mobs (Counting faf here) and can still do a decent job on another (KB) in a damage fashion aside from BLM.

You're retarded for suggesting I do so by your own "reasoning."

[Ryko]

Ok, so "Endgame = Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera." Check. It sure is good no SMN has ever died doing Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera or they might want to get EXP back in a decent amount of time.

Yeah Im sure that 600 exp or so from using a RR pin and dyin gon the wasy to khim really adds up . And you're retarded, name another job that excels on 4/6 of the sought after end-game mobs (Counting faf here) and can still do a decent job on another (KB) in a damage fashion aside from BLM.

You're retarded for suggesting I do so by your own "reasoning."

K now cut the peewee act when there's no contradiction and answer the question.

Hint: the answer is "there is none, all the others give a mob TP"

[evilpaul]

Ok, so "Endgame = Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera." Check. It sure is good no SMN has ever died doing Tiamat, Cerberus, and Khaimera or they might want to get EXP back in a decent amount of time.

Yeah Im sure that 600 exp or so from using a RR pin and dyin gon the wasy to khim really adds up . And you're retarded, name another job that excels on 4/6 of the sought after end-game mobs (Counting faf here) and can still do a decent job on another (KB) in a damage fashion aside from BLM.

You're retarded for suggesting I do so by your own "reasoning."

K now cut the peewee act when there's no contradiction and answer the question.

Hint: the answer is "there is none, all the others give a mob TP"

All non-retards know that the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter, level SMN you fucking noob."

SMN is a single purpose job: To kill 6 mobs without giving them TP. If you want to kill 6 mobs without giving them TP, level SMN or whine about how your job can't do that.

[Ryko]

All non-retards know that the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter, level SMN you fucking noob."

Yeah I'm sure that'd be another relevant response if I actually whined about wanting to be buffed as a DD on HNMs (or exp since some jobs excel at neither) or if I weren't in a shell that actually used melee dd's for everything.

I take it from you dodging the question over and over with your "I know you are but what am I" bullshit you don't have a worthwhile response?

[LD]

Hmph. On par doesn't mean a direct comparison. Your job has an assortment of buffs that are actually useful in a game with 2 dedicated buffing jobs (out of 18.) They may not always be as powerful as a BRD’s songs (there isn’t much that is), but they occasionally come close and are just as practical (some of which exceed a song’s duration.) In this sense, you are on par with BRDs; You are a job with decent buffs that people want when you're around.


Also, since when is "Fuck you" something people argue against?

[Rocl]

I see SMN+BRD+RDM backline merit parties all the time, isn't as good as like WHM BRD RDM back line merit parties, or BRD BRD RDM back line merit parties, but jesus christ I still see them often. In the last four merit parties I joined, two had summoners, and we were doing 12-15k/hr. Not awesome, but it's not that hard to keep a buffer you're so worried about losing. Also, can't summoners solo imps? And those bombs in Uleugrand? I swear all I ever hear is about how awesome killing bombs up there was/is.

[Nirokun!]

agloolik is like.. 4k/hr at 75? but its really, really variable. some will explode on their first TP attack, others will take an hour (no really, an hour) to kill (assuming you dont get fed up and begin to BP it)

4k/hr after a hike up a mountain through truesight aggro

i leveled smn like that, and while im proud of my accomplishment, im not meriting like that

and yeah, new summoners have imps, but im pretty sure i've never killed an imp on smn by myself (maybe once at ToAU release, but i cant really remember, i think i just stalled one while i ran away). but imps are probably better assuming you could get a pull (agloolik was empty 49/50 of the time i went up there, 69-75)

[Baha]

I had two good friends of mine level up SMN, 90% on bombs and snolls. BLM nowadays seem to level up solo on BST pets as well, nobody's arguing that BLM might be due some love, to get them into parties again, so why be so defensive about SMN? Both jobs are pretty damn good at endgame, but if you simply can't get PT's to level with, a bone might be in order. SMN does rule at Tiamat&co, Cerb and Khim, but they're hardly worth mentioning at any other event. A lot of them are whiny bastards, obsessed with stupid stuff (hi2u constant new avatar speculation/theories to do awesome DD with spirits) or retarded (sup Craftermath), but it's not ALL baseless.

I agree the job change button is there for a reason, and you can't expect to be good at everything, but the situation for some jobs is pretty ridiculous, and one of them is SMN. They're not the only job warranting some love, or the one in the most dire need of an update, but that doesn't make them like DRK's asking for imp or bat pets or getting to tank or some shit. (BST has been showered in much more of SE-brand shit, don't think anyone sane of mind would disagree with that)
If the solution for most of the content (even endgame) is jobchanging to pretty much any other job, it's a symptom of a problem as much it is a solution.

I'll agree the SMN skill/Ward-Rage patch was very, very nice for SMN, pushing them headfirst into the 'not awful' category on more than 4 mobs, but it's funny seeing SC/MB capabilities being argued as a step forward on BG. I don't think i've seen SMN's SC with BP's even suggested in ages, and the odd merit BP or astral flow being MB'd by accident or for laughs hasn't gotten a lot of people giddy.

[BRP]

SMN is/was the most poorly implemented job in the game depending on how you view PUP. I think that alone makes it more deserving job changes. You can boost their current BPs(and add a refresh/ballad BP) a good deal and they still wouldn't be better than BRD, COR, or RDM in the support role, but that's where their offensive BPs would come in. Nice and simple and actually effects the gameplay of FFXI.

[LD]

No.

[Dreampainter]

SMN is/was the most poorly implemented job in the game depending on how you view PUP. I think that alone makes it more deserving job changes.

Its silly to argue against this point you just made. I played smn at its release and it is definitely the worst job launch in the history of the game. Incomplete spell list, avatars could not participate in SC and MB at all, crazy glitches, less than 1 minute long astral flow, higher perpetuation for avatars than spirits (and then a complete 180 on the costs), no gear that had any relevence to the job at all.


Even pup now is more complete than smn had become even 2 years after initial launch into the game. I consider smn has come a long way, but thats only on certain HNM's. In every situation there is no reason to look into getting a summoner for any task other than third or fourth choice. Its always been the job of just last resort when nothing else could be found. (Give smn a break, new avatars only come like once a year, new weapons or armor for most other jobs are constantly appearing).
Gear that effects pets is few and far between

[Tomino]

well i'm not whining about tools SMNs have, they are perfectly fit in the whole picture : some buffs, some damages, extra healing and so on.
but all the items, merits and experience enhance the player base in such way the game now is faster than 1-2 years go, with everyone enjoying rushing among mobs or nuke things to death; even SE somehow worked for that by placing time restrictions on almost every ToAU content. if yesterday it was all about HP pools and nasty TP moves, today it isnt; and SMN can't come up with it at all.

the whole mechanic of summoning (7sec or so), assaulting (5sec until avatar actually gets in melee range) and BP (3 sec i'd say) it's plain broken when *today* mobs die in 20 sec. worst, any SMN buff requires the summoner to be in the middle of the party because of the AoE problem already mentioned and this means more and more time wasted doing nothing more than walking around.

[BRP]

well i'm not whining about tools SMNs have, they are perfectly fit in the whole picture : some buffs, some damages, extra healing and so on.
but all the items, merits and experience enhance the player base in such way the game now is faster than 1-2 years go, with everyone enjoying rushing among mobs or nuke things to death; even SE somehow worked for that by placing time restrictions on almost every ToAU content. if yesterday it was all about HP pools and nasty TP moves, today it isnt; and SMN can't come up with it at all.

the whole mechanic of summoning (7sec or so), assaulting (5sec until avatar actually gets in melee range) and BP (3 sec i'd say) it's plain broken when *today* mobs die in 20 sec. worst, any SMN buff requires the summoner to be in the middle of the party because of the AoE problem already mentioned and this means more and more time wasted doing nothing more than walking around.

In my opinion, a great solution to this would be SMNs contributing to the party in the same way a BRD does. Let's say Crimson Howl(Warcry for 30 seconds, 15% Attack Bonus) wasn't a "Warcry effect" and lasted for 2 or 3 minutes. The SMN would be contributing with every attack his melee comrades make.

But you do bring up a good point, which is why I stressed that they should have a JA that allows them to perhaps keep an avatar out for lengthier amount of time. I'll bring up another example, an idea I saw on this forum a long while back and loved ever since: rewarding SMNs MP based on avatar TP(proportionate to prep rate; without stripping the TP either) on long, but not too longer timer, somewhere in the 3 to 5 minute range. So a SMN could summon Ifrit, keep him out for a minute after he Wards and Rages(melee), use this JA, then Rage(magical, using that TP gained) again, put away Ifrit, and bring something else out for different Ward until Crimson Howl wears off.

[Tomino]

SMN'd need a reason (and subsequential way) to stay with avatars out, that's all. no more time wasted summoning/releasing and more time spent actually playing.
either having nice Buffs requiring pets out, or making Odin an avatar with no omgBP but very low perp cost; anything, just take my job out of the 15sec per action tunnel.

[Dreampainter]

Party: OMG we need help!

Smn: Ok i'll come to your aid with the speedy reaction of my avatars

Party: Hurry please!

Smn: I'm almost done, this is a heavy one (grunts)

Party: (Sounds of teeth gnashin and blood splattering)

Smn: Alright! avatar summoned and in position. Now who needs Stoneskin?

By now the party is long dead. Exaggerated yes, but thats the general situation. Unless you're able to keep the avatars out or readily available, Having to summon before every single significant action makes summoner weaker and weaker as players continue to optimize the speed of fights.

[Lordwafik]

How dare FFXI give us spellcasting timers. All spells should be instant cast.

Hey if I have to take the time out to cast refresh and haste , you're gonna take the time to poop a stone creature out your bum.

[Priran]

I'm totally ripping this off of other MMOs with summoner classes but why not give the summoner itself damaging and supporting spells? The damaging spells would useless on HNMs, and the supporting spells could still be useful enough to give them something to do between bloodpacts, but they'd both be good enough to get them into merit parties. Also eliminates absolute dependence on /WHM sub.

[Tomino]

How dare FFXI give us spellcasting timers. All spells should be instant cast.

in a world where a melee gets haste gear, Haste, March and Fighter's Roll yes, I'd like a way to make my core spell / jas a little faster. sorry if that troubles you.

[Indalecia]

Besides the avatar perpetuation, second reason why I never leave a pet on a mob, xp or otherwise, is because pets feed mobs tp on gold platter with a sideorder.