Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Kaslo]

I'm glad that Assault, Limbus, Dynamis, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, etc don't count. Or anything else that one might do in the days between Tiamat pops.

Sea = JoL, Decent DD on other jailers
Limbus = Omega/Ultima
Assault = Golden Salvage, Lamia 13, That escort one in L. sanctum, Taking Down the Baron, ect.
Dynamis = Glacier Megaboss (tho whm/smn works ;p) but there are alot of jobs the suck in dynamis.
Einherjar = There is a SMN AF burn strat some use, but again alot of jobs aren't "ideal" for einherjar
Sky = Decent DD on Gods, great for Kirin if you don't TP burn, there are much worse jobs for sky

want to try again?

[evilpaul]

All non-retards know that the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter, level SMN you fucking noob."

Yeah I'm sure that'd be another relevant response if I actually whined about wanting to be buffed as a DD on HNMs (or exp since some jobs excel at neither) or if I weren't in a shell that actually used melee dd's for everything.

I take it from you dodging the question over and over with your "I know you are but what am I" bullshit you don't have a worthwhile response?

The only "worthwhile response" in your mind is that if a job is wanted for three fights in the game that it is perfectly ok for it to be worthless everywhere else.

You've just shown how full of shit that theory is though: those terrible "TP feeding" jobs are just as desired as the magical TP-free SMN in nearly every actual situation.

"A job shouldn't be improved because it was useful in 2005. And hey look! You got a Rare/Ex piece of body armor like everyone else since RoZ!" Riiight. Makes perfect sense.

PUPs are lucky that Cerberus doesn't take 2x damage from Cannibal Blade or they'd have you out front bitching about how overpowered they are.

[Tomino]

Sea = JoL, Decent DD on other jailers
Limbus = Omega/Ultima
Assault = Golden Salvage, Lamia 13, That escort one in L. sanctum, Taking Down the Baron, ect.
Dynamis = Glacier Megaboss (tho whm/smn works ;p) but there are alot of jobs the suck in dynamis.
Einherjar = There is a SMN AF burn strat some use, but again alot of jobs aren't "ideal" for einherjar
Sky = Decent DD on Gods, great for Kirin if you don't TP burn, there are much worse jobs for sky

Sea = we dont use a single SMN with JoL. on other jailers almost 90% other jobs are funnier to play.
Limbus = omg! no SMN today let's cancel Ultima. well, never happened to me.
Assault = aside mentioning assaults where SMN is nothing but a trick, is any other assault actually *fun* with SMN? i tried many, and no. Fast paced as many are, SMN simply doesnt work.
Dynams = yes, we farm Glacier Megaboss almost every run, you know, for the drops. but when we dont do that, i can hardly assault a mob before it dies. oh, do i have to mention DynamisLord?
Sky = same for sea. and we dont kite Kirin anymore.
Nyzul = lol. everything is done so fast, SMN is the king of slowness.
Salvage = nothing there. and still slow reactions.


You think I'm asking for, dunno, zomg damages? to own Kirin with Zantetsuken?
All I ask for is for playing smn to be *fun*; and almost all new ToAU content is the most smn-unfriendly i ever met. and as already mentioned, BLU does almost everything SMN does, only faster, almost better and is much more fun to play. oh, and can merit.

[Koyangi]

What do you use on JoL? SMN on JoL has the same reason behind it that you'd do it on Khim ( <30%) and the CoP Wyrms generally speaking. You must love Charmga and dead BLM/melee.

[Toth]

Sorry to see this debate get so heated

Anyway, I guess I can add about SMN is that the current trend in FFXI is low manning (which turns formerly tedious events into more exciting and rewarding experiences) and speed kills, neither of which SMN can be useful. Just something to 'speed' it up would be welcome.

[Venture]

SMN could be a LOT worse as a pet job. SMN is the envy of BSTs in the pet role. You guys don't have to go find your pets, then keep control of them, and worry about them using a stupid AoE or useless TP move every 2 minutes with Sic, losing your pet to death, have it mischarm, uncharm, AI glitch, despawn, lose a Familiar pet early and be out 1:55 hours for your next effective time, be regulated to even more of a outside or last-string alliance healer, or just be regulated to add control for every endgame fight and never get a title and/or have to beg to get any drops or to even be let into the alliance in the first place for minor loot.

If CourierCarrie's Big Scissors was anything like Spinning Dive, or Predator Claws, then maybe we could be much more coveted in endgame like our specialized big-hitter and buffer cousins with ginormous MP pools and nil hate accumulation. You know, maybe we could be useful in a XP or merit par-ohshi-...!

It takes a month to level RDM to 75. Half that for BRD, and you can lot a damned Haidate for BRD if you want to if you go full-time BRD, because the HNM LS you're in will want to keep a BRD happy and in their group. So many BRD's in Haidates who loot-whore because they can... Nonetheless, having only one job to bring to a camp or XP/merit party is sooo 2004.

[Carnusty]

How dare FFXI give us spellcasting timers. All spells should be instant cast.

in a world where a melee gets haste gear, Haste, March and Fighter's Roll yes, I'd like a way to make my core spell / jas a little faster. sorry if that troubles you.

That greatly troubles me as a bard, because each one of my songs takes 8 seconds to cast, I need to wait about four seconds or so to cast another one, and parties expect me to keep three-four songs up while pulling.

If I ever had a SMN that could keep a buff rotation, let alone -one- buff from Fenrir constantly on the party, I'd appreciate this arguement alot more.

Additional note, my songs last a base two minutes. Some Summoner buffs last ten minutes.

[Tomino]

Additional note, my songs last a base two minutes. Some Summoner buffs last ten minutes.

Earthen Ward, Aerial Armor.
All useful buffs (Hastega, Phalanxga, Fenrir' Buffs, Diabolos MAB) around 3 min.

as for JOL, tought is quite OT, we use BLM+COR to nuke, melee to handle adds. only thing JoL does is -ga the tanks for the most boring HNM fight i ever experienced.

[Nirokun!]

SMN could be a LOT worse as a pet job. SMN is the envy of BSTs in the pet role. You guys don't have to go find your pets, then keep control of them, and worry about them using a stupid AoE or useless TP move every 2 minutes with Sic, losing your pet to death, have it mischarm, uncharm, AI glitch, despawn, lose a Familiar pet early and be out 1:55 hours for your next effective time, be regulated to even more of a outside or last-string alliance healer, or just be regulated to add control for every endgame fight and never get a title and/or have to beg to get any drops or to even be let into the alliance in the first place for minor loot.

If CourierCarrie's Big Scissors was anything like Spinning Dive, or Predator Claws, then maybe we could be much more coveted in endgame like our specialized big-hitter and buffer cousins with ginormous MP pools and nil hate accumulation. You know, maybe we could be useful in a XP or merit par-ohshi-...!

It takes a month to level RDM to 75. Half that for BRD, and you can lot a damned Haidate for BRD if you want to if you go full-time BRD, because the HNM LS you're in will want to keep a BRD happy and in their group. So many BRD's in Haidates who loot-whore because they can... Nonetheless, having only one job to bring to a camp or XP/merit party is sooo 2004.

arguing that smn is good enough because another job is bad/fucked isnt good

and to the other guy im pretty sure earthen ward and aerial armor are 15minute buffs

edit: someone tell me how long ward/armor last, wiki doesnt say and i thought they were 15

[Toth]

I'm all for SMN as support but too many of our buffs are either useless (Enthunder...ice spikes) or varying (Eclipse Howl/ Growl). Earthen Ward, Healing Ruby II, Spring Water, Shining Ruby and Aerial Armor are all quite useful but the buffing BPs are no where near as great/potent as BRD songs and COR rolls. I hate to say it but a Refreshga type BP could really help the supportive aspect of the job.

edit: forgot about Diabolos potent BPs too XD

[Carnusty]

I'm all for SMN as supprt but too many of our buffs are either useless (Enthunder...ice spikes)

Pastoral, Cappricio, Fantasia, Aubade, Operetta, Round, Gavotte...yeah. Sure some can be situational in Dynamis and the like, but they're just as useless 98% of the time as those buffs.

Pretty much the only boost to SMN I can fully agree with is making crimson howl a 3 minute buff like Fenrir's buffs...Crimson howl and Ecliptic acc. buff would make them comparable to BRD support.

Personally I'd just be happy if I could get a SMN in an exp party that could keep -any- buff active throughout EXP. If a WHM can keep four people hasted in merit parties, a SMN can use hastega or acc+ every once in a while. >_>...

Maybe I'm just biased that every SMN I've partied with is retarded. idk~~ I don't think I'd have much problem keeping a 3 minute-span buff up, regardless of MP cost. If I can keep it constant with the timing I've learned from WHM and BRD.

[Nirokun!]

my favorite idea so far was to give the actual summoner their own abilities/spells (nothing crazy) that they can use between BPs

but that would encroach on their resting time....

oh what to do

[Carnusty]

Rydia did it, why not us in FFXI! bwahah <_<

[Naygor]

Party: OMG we need help!

Smn: Ok i'll come to your aid with the speedy reaction of my avatars

Party: Hurry please!

Smn: I'm almost done, this is a heavy one (grunts)

Party: (Sounds of teeth gnashin and blood splattering)

Smn: Alright! avatar summoned and in position. Now who needs Stoneskin?

By now the party is long dead. Exaggerated yes, but thats the general situation. Unless you're able to keep the avatars out or readily available, Having to summon before every single significant action makes summoner weaker and weaker as players continue to optimize the speed of fights.

So why didn't he cast cure?

[Therin]

WAR pretty much sucks for HNMs unless you're doing that old WAR/WHM tanking nonsense (don't).

This is incorrect.

>_> How do you figure?

WARs do jack and shit out of Fafhogg and dynamis/limbus

[Kaslo]

Sea = JoL, Decent DD on other jailers
Limbus = Omega/Ultima
Assault = Golden Salvage, Lamia 13, That escort one in L. sanctum, Taking Down the Baron, ect.
Dynamis = Glacier Megaboss (tho whm/smn works ;p) but there are alot of jobs the suck in dynamis.
Einherjar = There is a SMN AF burn strat some use, but again alot of jobs aren't "ideal" for einherjar
Sky = Decent DD on Gods, great for Kirin if you don't TP burn, there are much worse jobs for sky

Sea = we dont use a single SMN with JoL. on other jailers almost 90% other jobs are funnier to play.
Limbus = omg! no SMN today let's cancel Ultima. well, never happened to me.
Assault = aside mentioning assaults where SMN is nothing but a trick, is any other assault actually *fun* with SMN? i tried many, and no. Fast paced as many are, SMN simply doesnt work.
Dynams = yes, we farm Glacier Megaboss almost every run, you know, for the drops. but when we dont do that, i can hardly assault a mob before it dies. oh, do i have to mention DynamisLord?
Sky = same for sea. and we dont kite Kirin anymore.
Nyzul = lol. everything is done so fast, SMN is the king of slowness.
Salvage = nothing there. and still slow reactions.


You think I'm asking for, dunno, zomg damages? to own Kirin with Zantetsuken?
All I ask for is for playing smn to be *fun*; and almost all new ToAU content is the most smn-unfriendly i ever met. and as already mentioned, BLU does almost everything SMN does, only faster, almost better and is much more fun to play. oh, and can merit.

Ok so this is what I got "Sure we can do everything but since my LS has epeens of every job I want to cry"

I also have never seen someone cancel an ultima/omega run because there was no WAR, MNK, BLU, COR, PUP, DRG, ect. I guess those jobs should whine aswell.

Just because your LS has progressed to a point that there are usually better/funner jobs for things doesn't mean you should cry, because for most LSs SMNs are a very good and sought-after DD.

[Ryko]

All non-retards know that the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter, level SMN you fucking noob."

Yeah I'm sure that'd be another relevant response if I actually whined about wanting to be buffed as a DD on HNMs (or exp since some jobs excel at neither) or if I weren't in a shell that actually used melee dd's for everything.

I take it from you dodging the question over and over with your "I know you are but what am I" bullshit you don't have a worthwhile response?

The only "worthwhile response" in your mind is that if a job is wanted for three fights in the game that it is perfectly ok for it to be worthless everywhere else.

You've just shown how full of shit that theory is though: those terrible "TP feeding" jobs are just as desired as the magical TP-free SMN in nearly every actual situation.

"A job shouldn't be improved because it was useful in 2005. And hey look! You got a Rare/Ex piece of body armor like everyone else since RoZ!" Riiight. Makes perfect sense.

Basically, yes, since a plethora of jobs only get 3 fights to shine on and are practically worthless utility-wise elsewhere. Monks finally got somewhere other than zerg fights to put their crap to use in salvage, DRGs finally got to add something unique with angon, Rangers are pretty much worthless aside from zerg fights or kraken exping, regardless of the situation (aside from having a stage 5 relic for exp) 99% of shells couldn't care less if a thief is anything but an item dropper. WARs shine on 1 HNM, exp, and dynamis. It is rare to find a job outside of RDM, BLM, BRD, and WHM that will do well in every situation. Get off it, you're doing nothing but flailing around uselessly since you're defiantly tarding up this argument as opposed to making any contention besides "I want more!". You wanna talk about equipment added since 2005? In the last 2 years the only thing on my WAR that's changed is my gloves. That's it, and it's arguably not even for the better (trading 1% haste fo 2.5 acc). And if I said "WAR could stand to gain more", I'd bet any amount of money your tune would 100% flip and say "WAR doesn't need shit, look at what it can do already".

PUPs are lucky that Cerberus doesn't take 2x damage from Cannibal Blade or they'd have you out front bitching about how overpowered they are

You're still arguing from a point where you think I'm jealous of a job's capability to do damage and how much damage that is. I'm not, for plenty of reasons (the main one being that I have to be at a huge disadvantage or flat out trying to do something other than rip a mob apart to not parse damn close if not the highest). Thing is, if I want to go out, I need to worry about causing my alliance grief with things like fulmination or tebbad wing or GoH. You don't. You can sit here and argue about how it's not a big deal but that would only be because you once again refuse to grasp the context of it.

It was cute how you posted the picture of aurik's costco haidate like it was a good retort though, really.

And I wouldn't really argue about it, Therin/Zealot. Zealot of course will know that a WAR -can- provide a function outside of those things because he's of course done all of it, but that's because he's a WAR only and it's not like he has the convenience of switching to another job to understand how it's better suited for it. I'm kinda wondering how disillusioned he'll become with it when he hits 75 SAM lol.

[Indalecia]

and to the other guy im pretty sure earthen ward and aerial armor are 15minute buffs

edit: someone tell me how long ward/armor last, wiki doesnt say and i thought they were 15

Yes, 15 min

And any SMN who CAN'T keep up hastega and fenrir buffs in xp with refresh blows. Don't invite them again.

[Tomino]

Ok so this is what I got "Sure we can do everything but since my LS has epeens of every job I want to cry"

i replied to your post because you seemed so confident in stating there's always a sweet spot for SMN in any endgame event, which isnt true. at all. 90% of the time, SMN is needed to do some "trick", and i dont feel this is a proper reason to validate a job.
yes, there are times I am useful because of some game mechanics i can avoid, like hate-free damage, no TP given or carby pulls. but does this make the job anywherefun? no. useful, maybe, but definitely not funnier.


it's not the game suddenly had SMN broken. things just did speed up, and summoner was left behind.

[Nirokun!]

Thing is, if I want to go out, I need to worry about causing my alliance grief with things like fulmination or tebbad wing or GoH. You don't. You can sit here and argue about how it's not a big deal but that would only be because you once again refuse to grasp the context of it.

look

a warrior or a mnk are crazy useful in dyna/limbus/assault/ein/salvage/etc where most anything needs to die outside of a handful of HNMs where TP attacks just arent worth the dmg

a smn is useful at a small handful of HNMs where TP attacks just arent worth the dmg of a war or mnk, and fights are not limited by time

smn isnt asking to be amazing at everything, smn are asking to be useful OUTSIDE of HNMs, you know, everyday situations like the ones listed in your everyday lsmes. i dont see what is so, so terribly wrong with wanting to be more useful. (and im going to lol at you if you say /whm, because you're essentially not playing smn anymore, you're playing your subjob, and you might as well switch to whm.)

its not like smn has a complete stranglehold on anything, its not like any mob is untouchable without smn.