Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[evilpaul]

All non-retards know that the correct answer is, "It doesn't matter, level SMN you fucking noob."

Yeah I'm sure that'd be another relevant response if I actually whined about wanting to be buffed as a DD on HNMs (or exp since some jobs excel at neither) or if I weren't in a shell that actually used melee dd's for everything.

I take it from you dodging the question over and over with your "I know you are but what am I" bullshit you don't have a worthwhile response?

The only "worthwhile response" in your mind is that if a job is wanted for three fights in the game that it is perfectly ok for it to be worthless everywhere else.

You've just shown how full of shit that theory is though: those terrible "TP feeding" jobs are just as desired as the magical TP-free SMN in nearly every actual situation.

"A job shouldn't be improved because it was useful in 2005. And hey look! You got a Rare/Ex piece of body armor like everyone else since RoZ!" Riiight. Makes perfect sense.

Basically, yes, since a plethora of jobs only get 3 fights to shine on and are practically worthless utility-wise elsewhere. Monks finally got somewhere other than zerg fights to put their crap to use in salvage, DRGs finally got to add something unique with angon, Rangers are pretty much worthless aside from zerg fights or kraken exping, regardless of the situation (aside from having a stage 5 relic for exp) 99% of shells couldn't care less if a thief is anything but an item dropper. WARs shine on 1 HNM, exp, and dynamis. It is rare to find a job outside of RDM, BLM, BRD, and WHM that will do well in every situation. Get off it, you're doing nothing but flailing around uselessly since you're defiantly tarding up this argument as opposed to making any contention besides "I want more!". You wanna talk about equipment added since 2005? In the last 2 years the only thing on my WAR that's changed is my gloves. That's it, and it's arguably not even for the better (trading 1% haste fo 2.5 acc). And if I said "WAR could stand to gain more", I'd bet any amount of money your tune would 100% flip and say "WAR doesn't need shit, look at what it can do already".

[quote:9536d]PUPs are lucky that Cerberus doesn't take 2x damage from Cannibal Blade or they'd have you out front bitching about how overpowered they are

You're still arguing from a point where you think I'm jealous of a job's capability to do damage and how much damage that is. I'm not, for plenty of reasons (the main one being that I have to be at a huge disadvantage or flat out trying to do something other than rip a mob apart to not parse damn close if not the highest). Thing is, if I want to go out, I need to worry about causing my alliance grief with things like fulmination or tebbad wing or GoH. You don't. You can sit here and argue about how it's not a big deal but that would only be because you once again refuse to grasp the context of it.

It was cute how you posted the picture of aurik's costco haidate like it was a good retort though, really.

And I wouldn't really argue about it, Therin/Zealot. Zealot of course will know that a WAR -can- provide a function outside of those things because he's of course done all of it, but that's because he's a WAR only and it's not like he has the convenience of switching to another job to understand how it's better suited for it. I'm kinda wondering how disillusioned he'll become with it when he hits 75 SAM lol.[/quote:9536d]This has to be the longest winded way I've ever seen "SHUT UP SMN IS GOOD ON TIAMAT!!!" that I've ever seen.

[Not Kuno]

Thing is, if I want to go out, I need to worry about causing my alliance grief with things like fulmination or tebbad wing or GoH. You don't. You can sit here and argue about how it's not a big deal but that would only be because you once again refuse to grasp the context of it.

look

a warrior or a mnk are crazy useful in dyna/limbus/assault/ein/salvage/etc where most anything needs to die outside of a handful of HNMs where TP attacks just arent worth the dmg

a smn is useful at a small handful of HNMs where TP attacks just arent worth the dmg of a war or mnk, and fights are not limited by time

smn isnt asking to be amazing at everything, smn are asking to be useful OUTSIDE of HNMs, you know, everyday situations like the ones listed in your everyday lsmes. i dont see what is so, so terribly wrong with wanting to be more useful. (and im going to lol at you if you say /whm, because you're essentially not playing smn anymore, you're playing your subjob, and you might as well switch to whm.)

its not like smn has a complete stranglehold on anything, its not like any mob is untouchable without smn.

100% true. SMN is nice on some HNM but when are you gonna take it over another other job for 99% of all other events?

[Kaslo]

however speeding up SMN could lead to overpowering it for endgame.

[Ryko]

This has to be the longest winded way I've ever seen "SHUT UP SMN IS GOOD ON TIAMAT!!!" that I've ever seen.

Yeah it's rather obvious you haven't read a damn thing beyond what you want to see from the first second, I'm moreso doing it to wake up than for your benefit since you havent responded with anything worthwhile through any of this.

(and im going to lol at you if you say /whm, because you're essentially not playing smn anymore, you're playing your subjob, and you might as well switch to whm.)

Note that I didn't make this contention at all and it is a complete aside but some jobs only shine when playing their subjob, the most 2 notable ones being WAR (relevant to what was stated earlier in your text) and PLD (in terms of flat out utility) subbing nin. Arguing about reliance on a subjob to be useful is logically unsound. Your subjob should not be an irrelevant dismissed afterthought, why should you be any different than the people who accept it as one of the greatest tools available to a player?

Even if I were to just go "Fine, WAR has it good" (and honestly by my standards it really does). That still leaves the other jobs I mentioned that at most get 3 fights they're even considered on then thrown to the wayside. You guys basically get new weapon skills and spells every expansion and you're really going to tell a DRG they have it better because they got homam 1 expansion ago? Way to half empty yourselves.

[Not Kuno]

however speeding up SMN could lead to overpowering it for endgame.

I don't think lowering BP time will be that harmful. Many of them take assloads of MP to cast (ie. 70 bps) and can't really be spammed anyway.

[BRP]

however speeding up SMN could lead to overpowering it for endgame.

I don't think lowering BP time will be that harmful. Many of them take assloads of MP to cast (ie. 70 bps) and can't really be spammed anyway.

I agree with this, but I thought they were talking about the time it takes to summon an avatar. That could probably be lowered based on level/skill.

[Not Kuno]

however speeding up SMN could lead to overpowering it for endgame.

I don't think lowering BP time will be that harmful. Many of them take assloads of MP to cast (ie. 70 bps) and can't really be spammed anyway.

I agree with this, but I thought they were talking about the time it takes to summon an avatar. That could probably be lowered based on level/skill.

TBH I don't think that is much of an issue. >.>

SE always QQs about how nobody leaves avatars out in interviews and stuff so the most likely change is going to relate to that.

[Venture]

arguing that smn is good enough because another job is bad/fucked isnt good

and to the other guy im pretty sure earthen ward and aerial armor are 15minute buffs

edit: someone tell me how long ward/armor last, wiki doesnt say and i thought they were 15

That's not the point, though. The point was that SMN's 'issues' with their job are just wants, and not needs. Same goes for anytime a NIN, WAR, BRD or RDM ever asks for more buffs. There's other jobs out there who need SE's attention long before they go back to look over jobs who are good or overpowered already. Ya have to appreciate that the world and SE doesn't revolve around just your job.

[evilpaul]

This has to be the longest winded way I've ever seen "SHUT UP SMN IS GOOD ON TIAMAT!!!" that I've ever seen.

Yeah it's rather obvious you haven't read a damn thing beyond what you want to see from the first second, I'm moreso doing it to wake up than for your benefit since you havent responded with anything worthwhile through any of this.

That's hilarious coming from you. You've just been repeating "SHUT UP SMN IS GOOD ON TIAMAT!!!" for three pages now.

I'll repost this for your benefit:

Thing is, if I want to go out, I need to worry about causing my alliance grief with things like fulmination or tebbad wing or GoH. You don't. You can sit here and argue about how it's not a big deal but that would only be because you once again refuse to grasp the context of it.

look

a warrior or a mnk are crazy useful in dyna/limbus/assault/ein/salvage/etc where most anything needs to die outside of a handful of HNMs where TP attacks just arent worth the dmg

a smn is useful at a small handful of HNMs where TP attacks just arent worth the dmg of a war or mnk, and fights are not limited by time

smn isnt asking to be amazing at everything, smn are asking to be useful OUTSIDE of HNMs, you know, everyday situations like the ones listed in your everyday lsmes. i dont see what is so, so terribly wrong with wanting to be more useful. (and im going to lol at you if you say /whm, because you're essentially not playing smn anymore, you're playing your subjob, and you might as well switch to whm.)

its not like smn has a complete stranglehold on anything, its not like any mob is untouchable without smn.

[Ryko]

That's hilarious coming from you. You've just been repeating "SHUT UP SMN IS GOOD ON TIAMAT!!!" for three pages now.

Yeah it's rather obvious you haven't read a damn thing beyond what you want to see from the first second, I'm moreso doing it to wake up than for your benefit since you havent responded with anything worthwhile through any of this.

You're really gonna have to come up with something new aside from "I know you are but what am I". As for niro I'm responding to him because he's actually attempting to read and respond, you're cutting the first part out. Nevermind the fact that niro responding doesn't change the fact that you haven't added any worthwhile response in the full duration of this thread.

[BRP]

The point was that SMN's 'issues' with their job are just wants, and not needs.

If a SMN is asking for another avatar, their issue is a want. If a SMN is asking for BP improvement or a JA that allows them more endurance in parties, their issue is a need.

[Nirokun!]

(and im going to lol at you if you say /whm, because you're essentially not playing smn anymore, you're playing your subjob, and you might as well switch to whm.)

Note that I didn't make this contention at all and it is a complete aside but some jobs only shine when playing their subjob, the most 2 notable ones being WAR (relevant to what was stated earlier in your text) and PLD (in terms of flat out utility) subbing nin. Arguing about reliance on a subjob to be useful is logically unsound. Your subjob should not be an irrelevant dismissed afterthought, why should you be any different than the people who accept it as one of the greatest tools available to a player?

WAR is still WAR, and does WARish things with /NIN. /NIN gives it shadows and dual wield2, nothing else. You're not standing around /NIN and idle with your 2 weapons equipped, you're playing a warrior that has shadows and a 2nd 1handed weapon. Your JAs are still warrior JAs, you use warrior weaponskills, you're just a better warrior because of it.

Same for PLD/NIN. /NIN gives it shadows and dual wield (mostly used, if at all, for an offhanded +enmity sword, if not disregarded for a shield). Paladin still casts flash, cures itself, uses PLD JAs and spells, and tanks. Pld/war tanked and used spells and JAs.

Now, we have smn. Smn/Whm, when not using avatars every 46sec-1min does what? Not using summoner spells, not using summoner JAs. They use their 37 whm, coupled with their summoner mp and auto refresh (which is the only real... active[LOL] part of summoner being utilized) to play a gimpy whitemage until the BP timer comes up. Summoner is not summoner unless something has been summoned, and is perpetuated. If you dont have a pet out, you're not playing summoner (unless you're resting, thats essential to magery in general), you're playing a 37whitemage with more mp than a 37whitemage should have, and autorefresh.

That being said, do you see a problem with a summoner keeping an avatar out full-time?

Because i do.

[Nirokun!]

arguing that smn is good enough because another job is bad/fucked isnt good

and to the other guy im pretty sure earthen ward and aerial armor are 15minute buffs

edit: someone tell me how long ward/armor last, wiki doesnt say and i thought they were 15

That's not the point, though. The point was that SMN's 'issues' with their job are just wants, and not needs. Same goes for anytime a NIN, WAR, BRD or RDM ever asks for more buffs. There's other jobs out there who need SE's attention long before they go back to look over jobs who are good or overpowered already. Ya have to appreciate that the world and SE doesn't revolve around just your job.

ok then

no job can try (or even be discussed) to be fixed until bst and pup are fixed

[Ryko]

WAR is still WAR, and does WARish things with /NIN. /NIN gives it shadows and dual wield2, nothing else.

Not even remotely a valid contention to make, /NIN pretty much redefines what a WAR is capable of doing efficiently or spectacularly. A WAR voking a mob anywhere in an end-game fashion will get 3 second stomped and left nursing a reraise item to be of any use in a fashion other than being another dumb MP sponge feeding a mob TP. A WAR/NIN is not only going to survive longer, but output more damage because of it. It'd be similar to me saying "SMN is still SMN, and does SMNish things with /WHM (support). /WHM gives it status removal and faster cures, but it doesn't matter because you'd be support anyway." You're in an accomplished end-game shell and from what I can see fairly competent, I don't even have to explain why something a simple as 2 spells pretty much revamps both WAR and PLD. You don't see the equivalency in a WAR's first job ability being pretty much useless unless they sub ninja?

[Nirokun!]

WAR is still WAR, and does WARish things with /NIN. /NIN gives it shadows and dual wield2, nothing else.

Not even remotely a valid contention to make, /NIN pretty much redefines what a WAR is capable of doing efficiently or spectacularly. A WAR voking a mob anywhere in an end-game fashion will get 3 second stomped and left nursing a reraise item to be of any use in a fashion other than being another dumb MP sponge feeding a mob TP. A WAR/NIN is not only going to survive longer, but output more damage because of it. It'd be similar to me saying "SMN is still SMN, and does SMNish things with /WHM (support). /WHM gives it status removal and faster cures, but it doesn't matter because you'd be support anyway." You're in an accomplished end-game shell and from what I can see fairly competent, I don't even have to explain why something a simple as 2 spells pretty much revamps both WAR and PLD. You don't see the equivalency in a WAR's first job ability being pretty much useless unless they sub ninja?

It redefines what a WAR is capable of doing.
It redefines what a WAR is doing.
WAR is doing.

The WAR is still doing WAR~ish things, a smn, with /whm, is doing WHM things, not summoner things. A summoner (currently) acts through their pet, and besides added mp, the whitemage subjob does nothing that assists a summoner's activity through their pet.

Subbing whitemage to summoner doesnt improve what the summoner is doing (hi, pet job) outside of giving the summoner more mp with which to summon more avatars. comparable to /nin's shadows and dual wield, summoner gets blink and stoneskin, and a fatter mp bar. But you and i both know that smn/whm is expected to heal (often mainheal) if invited to events that arent HNM.

/NIN grants utsusemi shadows, /WHM grants blink shadows
/NIN grants more efficient damage through Dual Wield II, /WHM grants more mp with which to summon, perpetuate, and BP.

You dont play your subjob on war/nin, but you do play your subjob on smn/whm.

What smn want is to be able to play their summoner (sure, still sub whitemage), but to do more with their mainjob abilities (if the need arises to grant more, so be it) and be more useful outside of a few HNM.

[Ryko]

The WAR is still doing WAR~ish things, a smn, with /whm, is doing WHM things, not summoner things.

Last I checked, casting shadows is not a "WAR~ish thing", it's a function of the subjob and you're actively choosing to read around the statement because you saw 3 letters that needed to be put down as it was the subject of the discussion at hand. A WAR is a DD when you ignore the function of the subjob. A WAR is a hybrid tank and DD (which is what it was meant to be but cannot be efficiently without it) when you put the subjob back into play. Like I said, just because you have to play the game under the restrictions most others have to does not mean you're at any more of a disadvantage than the rest. You are not a unique snowflake. Your subjob enhances your role (to some degree, you're as much a support job as you are a damage job. At least you can function at 100% in one aspect while having the second aspect enhanced by your subjob), for a WAR our subjob defines it.

[evilpaul]

That's hilarious coming from you. You've just been repeating "SHUT UP SMN IS GOOD ON TIAMAT!!!" for three pages now.

[quote:3110b]Yeah it's rather obvious you haven't read a damn thing beyond what you want to see from the first second, I'm moreso doing it to wake up than for your benefit since you havent responded with anything worthwhile through any of this.

You're really gonna have to come up with something new aside from "I know you are but what am I". As for niro I'm responding to him because he's actually attempting to read and respond, you're cutting the first part out. Nevermind the fact that niro responding doesn't change the fact that you haven't added any worthwhile response in the full duration of this thread.[/quote:3110b]"I know you are, but what am I?" would be discussion beyond your comprehension.

All you've said so far is:

1) SMN is fine because it's useful several times a week on HNMs that only one LS on each server gets to kill.
2) Anyone who thinks maybe SMN could use some fix to be useful in any other situation whatsoever is "whining", aka disagreeing with you.
3) Your LS not using WARs for much is apparently some sort of proof of how uber SMN is.
4) SMN should not be given any tweaks, new avatars, gear, or anything else because Spinning Dive doesn't give Tiamat TP.
5) Anyone who disagrees with Ryko is "whining."

Did I cover all your tremendous "contributions" to this thread or did I miss one?

I've read your posts, and they're repetitive drivel.

Ryko: STFU SMN your job got Diabolos two years ago and are great at Tiamat!
Somebody Else: Well, maybe we could use a change for doing things other than Tiamat too?
Ryko: God why are SMNs so whiny?! You get to damage Tiamat without giving it TP!
Another Person: Yeah, it would be nice to be useful in Dynamis, Limbus, or Meritpo too though.
Ryko: FFS! You SMNs are always complaining!! Get your SMN buffer with a merit job like WAR, which my LS doesn't use for anything besides Dynamis, and quit your bitching!!!

[cassiraa]

The WAR is still doing WAR~ish things, a smn, with /whm, is doing WHM things, not summoner things. A summoner (currently) acts through their pet, and besides added mp, the whitemage subjob does nothing that assists a summoner's activity through their pet.

as NIN/DRK, you're "Playing your subjob" every time you stun, Last Resort, Sleep, Bind.
You won't hold hate without your subjob, your job is defined by the sub you use.

as WAR/NIN, you're "Playing your subjob" every time you cast Utsusemi, hold hate tanking.
You Totally rewrite your entire playing style if you go /thf, /nin, /mnk, /drg. Everything changes based on it.

as SAM/THF you're "Playing your subjob" every time you TA&Overwhelm or SA&Gekko for spike damage or hate control.
SAM/THF often times is playing the role of it's support job, This is normal.

as SMN/WHM you're "Playing your subjob" every time you cast a cure or status removal to help the party between BPs.
When it affects YOU, it's different. When YOU have to cast cure, it's different. because this time, It's affecting you.


If you are 'expected to main heal at HNMs' then you need more WHMs in your LS. I haven't forced a SMN to come to an event as a main healer in months. That's a function of who you're with, like making WARs main tank, not the job itself.

What smn want is to be able to play their summoner (sure, still sub whitemage), but to do more with their mainjob abilities (if the need arises to grant more, so be it) and be more useful outside of a few HNM.

Keep titan and fenrir wards on melee, while keeping a damage bp on the mob each time they're up. Bring enough WHMs that you aren't forced to main heal.

[Toth]

Just...let it go guys. Ryko's 'discussions' with SMNs dates back to the infamous SMN KI thread a few years back where he called SMNs who had the audacity to suggest that the job could benefit from lvl 70 gear (this may have been before YYRobe, not sure) 'fat kids waiting for a ride on the carosel'. His opinion is the same then as now so no point trying to change his mind. I trust SE to do what's neccessary...

[Ryko]

I'm sorry are you actually trying to come up with something new now that I'm talking to someone else? Yes, you are whining, yes, you are flailing about like a childish retard. Yes, it took you 4 pages to finally read what you were responding to and come up with something else with "nuh uh you are".

1) SMN is fine because it's useful several times a week on HNMs that only one LS on each server gets to kill.

A job that excels at something should count themselves lucky that at least they have that much. Secondly I apologize that your server is basically under stanislav's heel but not every server is like that.

2) Anyone who thinks maybe SMN could use some fix to be useful in any other situation whatsoever is "whining", aka disagreeing with you.

No, a whine would be a complaint made in vain for the sake of complaining, which up until this point is exactly what you've done.

3) Your LS not using WARs for much is apparently some sort of proof of how uber SMN is.

My LS has nothing to do with it, and if it did it'd probably be the last LS you would want to use an example for that sort of statement.

4) SMN should not be given any tweaks, new avatars, gear, or anything else because Spinning Dive doesn't give Tiamat TP.

You have it good, others have it much worse, SE would be pragmatic to help those issues first rather than hand out freebies to a job that cries if it doesn't get a new kung fu grip celestial action figure every couple of months.

5) Anyone who disagrees with Ryko is "whining."

Do you find repeating yourself cute?

Just...let it go guys. Ryko's 'discussions' with SMNs dates back to the infamous SMN KI thread a few years back where he called SMNs who had the audacity to suggest that the job could benefit from lvl 70 gear (this may have been before YYRobe, not sure) 'fat kids waiting for a ride on the carosel'. His opinion is the same then as now so no point trying to change his mind. I trust SE to do what's neccessary...

You know the best part about it? The main person I argued with in that topic is in sea with me on their summoner right now.