Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

**Beckwin** · 2007-08-19 16:38

-useful on HNMs (moreso than other jobs in some instances)
-can solo (better than many other jobs)
-can function as a healer in merit pts (sorry you don't get elite 25k+/hr parties, but neither do a ton of other jobs)
-has pretty solid gear options as is and most are ra/ex
-wouldn't suprise me at all if they got another avatar by the time it was all said and done for ToAU

All that aside, fuck SMN. Seriously. Stupid job. Hell with buffing it; should just be removed from the game. Attracts too many RPing-zammites and whiners, and it gets really lethal when they're a little from both columns. You want to melee, you want to spam offensive BPs while assuming a support role, you want to be a brd equivalent, you want non-avatar spells, you're like warriors who want stuff better than ridillberkdate just for the sake of new shinyz, and now want more mp refresh capability to make it all happen. Log off and go make a Garnet + Eiko party in FF9.

**Toth** · 2007-08-19 16:40

^ Well, it was an old discussion and your attitude then is still the same.

In regards to playing as SMN in meritting:

You could Hastega with Garuda and then keep Fenrir out, buffing every minute and using Eclipse Bite (one of the best and sadly underused BPs in the game (in damage vs MP) for some nice DD. However, the limitations of SMN come into play when you realize that you need to spend 70ish MP per BP (do all 5 BPs and you've used at least 350-450 MP in 5 minutes). Add in a 3-4 MP drain negated by refresh and you will be out of MP in less than 15 mins (and that's if you are not healing). It's not terrible but its still not effecient for the fast paced nature of a good exp party.

But anyway, CAN WE TALK ABOUT OTHER JOBS THAT NEED ADJUSTING PLEAAAAAAASE

Demosthenes11 · 2007-08-19 16:42

rdm sucks at solo and needs to be buffed enhancer, please improve rdm

**Ryko** · 2007-08-19 16:43

Originally Posted by Toth

^ Well, it was an old discussion and your attitude then is still the same.

Actually aside from SMN being the subject the discussion had nothing to do with this one and was gear based, but I just felt like seeing how much you remembered about it.

**BRP** · 2007-08-19 16:47

Is anyone going nuts waiting for the job adjustments? It's been like 5 days, they are breaking the 3-day pattern, damn it all.

**Toth** · 2007-08-19 17:17

Actually aside from SMN being the subject the discussion had nothing to do with this one and was gear based, but I just felt like seeing how much you remembered about it

Besides that it was about gear, you mention the same things now that you did then: points about TPless hate, overpowerness of the job on HNMs, etc. I recall the SMNs posting wanted ways to enhance their avatar's DD abilities like melees can enhance their DoT and Wses through sushi and gear. You kept saying that the avatars hit fine as they are when that is simply not true. All avatars can do well DDwise is spike damage BPs anyway. That stupid topic went off for like 13 pages before being locked.

I am too, BRP >< Glad I'm not the only one. I keep checking early every morning hoping for the topic. I am so very excited by this update.

I'm going to guess Job Adjustments and Pit Anounced this week as well as the date of the update. Chocobo Circuit next Tuesday. Update Weds.

**Ryko** · 2007-08-19 17:27

Besides that it was about gear, you mention the same things now that you did then: points about TPless hate

Seeing as how I didn't recognize the lack of TP being given to a mob until khimaira, I think at most I would have mentioned the 0 enmity thing. But it's not even pragmatic to make a "beside that" comment because that was the entire point.

**Therin** · 2007-08-19 18:37

Toth vs. Ryko arguments were old like a year ago.

**Nirokun!** · 2007-08-19 18:51

Originally Posted by Ryko

The WAR is still doing WAR~ish things, a smn, with /whm, is doing WHM things, not summoner things.

Last I checked, casting shadows is not a "WAR~ish thing", it's a function of the subjob and you're actively choosing to read around the statement because you saw 3 letters that needed to be put down as it was the subject of the discussion at hand. A WAR is a DD when you ignore the function of the subjob. A WAR is a hybrid tank and DD (which is what it was meant to be but cannot be efficiently without it) when you put the subjob back into play. Like I said, just because you have to play the game under the restrictions most others have to does not mean you're at any more of a disadvantage than the rest. You are not a unique snowflake. Your subjob enhances your role (to some degree, you're as much a support job as you are a damage job. At least you can function at 100% in one aspect while having the second aspect enhanced by your subjob), for a WAR our subjob defines it.

Last I checked, casting blink, or any white magic, is not a smn~ish thing, its a function of the subjob.

But im all for utilizing my whitemage subjob to enhance my actions as a summoner. But as it stands, my whitemage subjob does not enhance my actions as a summoner, especially in a fast-paced environment that is the game we play today. When aerial armor rotations on pld/war was acceptable behavior, summoner had another activity outside of BPing HNMs, that was a summoner action. You seem to think that utilizing my whitemage subjob to provide main support, edging out my actions as a summoner, is acceptable. I, and a lot of other summoners, do not.

Lets make it more obvious whats going on. Lets swap the jobs, we have a WHM/SMN (or even WHM/BST(75), who actively and aggressively uses their supportjob in lieu of their mainjob abilities/spells. In what sense are they a whitemage? In what sense are they playing whitemage? Pet jobs are so unique that, unfortunately, they dont gain much from their subs. However, whitemage is a powerful subjob, and many job combos benefit from /whm, mainjob being a healer, or not. Having a powerful subjob doesnt mean you stop playing and using your mainjob, however, for summoner, it does. Thats the problem with summoner. BPing a few HNMs just isnt enough.

**Nirokun!** · 2007-08-19 19:30

(im not good with breaking up stuff to quote, so bear with me

)

Originally Posted by Nirokun

The WAR is still doing WAR~ish things, a smn, with /whm, is doing WHM things, not summoner things. A summoner (currently) acts through their pet, and besides added mp, the whitemage subjob does nothing that assists a summoner's activity through their pet.

as NIN/DRK, you're "Playing your subjob" every time you stun, Last Resort, Sleep, Bind.
You won't hold hate without your subjob, your job is defined by the sub you use.

As NIN/DRK, you're still tanking. Your subjob, whatever you choose (even /brd worked at one point) allowed you to tank, should you choose to tank. SMN is a pet job, /whm doesnt help my pets do jackshit lol (outside of having some extra mp to play with, but lolmaxmp)

as WAR/NIN, you're "Playing your subjob" every time you cast Utsusemi, hold hate tanking.
You Totally rewrite your entire playing style if you go /thf, /nin, /mnk, /drg. Everything changes based on it.

Ryko said war was a hybrid tank/DD, you can choose your subs to enhance those aspects of your job. No sub does that for summoner, or bst, or pup (drg can sub different jobs and their wyvern changes

).

as SAM/THF you're "Playing your subjob" every time you TA&Overwhelm or SA&Gekko for spike damage or hate control.
SAM/THF often times is playing the role of it's support job, This is normal.

(I had to look up what overwhelm does, we dont use SAM much in the LS

). This one i give to you. anything TA'd as hate control is really THF. But SAM is good enough in its own right, SMN is not. We're arguing that SMN needs a fix because it relies on its subjob's role as a healer at +90% (numbers out my ass for general idea) of existing FFXI endgame content, but SAM doesnt really suffer from that. /THF SATA WS puts hate on someone else (tank), allowing the SAM to DD without hate, and without /NIN. The SAM does more damage overall with /THF instead of NIN, because spike dmg is on someone else. If mnk could somehow sub war and put hate one someone else, they wouldnt go nin. But the multi-hit WS of mnk dont benefit from /thf like SAM single hit WS do

as SMN/WHM you're "Playing your subjob" every time you cast a cure or status removal to help the party between BPs.
When it affects YOU, it's different. When YOU have to cast cure, it's different. because this time, It's affecting you.

It affects smn because existing subjobs do not enhance the role of the summoner, which is summoning. Other jobs, like the ones listed above, benefit largely from their subjobs, which enhance the role of the main job... that subbed that subjob... (how awkward)

If you are 'expected to main heal at HNMs' then you need more WHMs in your LS. I haven't forced a SMN to come to an event as a main healer in months. That's a function of who you're with, like making WARs main tank, not the job itself.

Who said i was expected to main heal at HNMs? I think we're in agreement that outside of said few HNMs that we get to BP for our "hateless"/"tp-less" dmg, we have to main heal.

My LS functions fine at events. If we need healers, i can switch to whitemage, its pretty pimp IMO

Its better than smn as a healer and as a PT supporter, and i wouldnt ask a summoner to mainheal either, unless it was their only job, and we lacked healers, and i decided to not drop the event entirely because we lacked dedicated healers.

What smn want is to be able to play their summoner (sure, still sub whitemage), but to do more with their mainjob abilities (if the need arises to grant more, so be it) and be more useful outside of a few HNM.

Keep titan and fenrir wards on melee, while keeping a damage bp on the mob each time they're up. Bring enough WHMs that you aren't forced to main heal.[/quote]

Thats a nightmare you have. Earthen ward will last a variable time depending on TP attacks (92mp). Ecliptic Howl/Growl (57/47mp, respectively), last 3mins each at base duration, and i think you can push them each to 6mins (i would hope, patch changes illude me) max with good summoning skill in your ward macro (and even then, moonphase, yay chr+). Lets not forget Hastega (112mp) every 3mins, and you're trying to do Lv70 (ideally) BPs, all 164mp. This doesnt include summoning or perpetuation costs. It looks like you have to frequently (and by frequently, i mean between each BP, 1 tick resting) rest, all for a couple buffs and a Lv70. You cant do that and maintain MP, not even speaking of how poorly that slot is wasted. To BP khimaira, with a bard and corsair as mp support, i RageBP as soon as my timer is up, allowing me to rest 1 tick. You cannot summon, ward BP, rage BP and rest and maintain MP for any lengthy (hell, even short) duration of time. You cannot, its terribly inefficient.

**Ddong** · 2007-08-19 19:38

Last I checked, SMN bloodpact is split into rage and ward. This means you can do a BP every 22ish seconds. You should learn to use SMN bloodpacts to the best of it's abilities instead of saying you are limited to mostly your sub job.

A SMN uses it's avatar's abilities to aid them in battle. It can be both offensive and defensive. Don't tell me that SMN is just a WHM. You can do aoe haste, stoneskin, eva/acc boost, stat boost, attack(physical/magical) boost, defense boost, etc. There is so many things a SMN can do through the use of avatars in between the downtime of the level 70 offensive bloodpacts.

**Ddong** · 2007-08-19 19:52

Originally Posted by Nirokun!

Thats a nightmare you have. Earthen ward will last a variable time depending on TP attacks (92mp). Ecliptic Howl/Growl (57/47mp, respectively), last 3mins each at base duration, and i think you can push them each to 6mins (i would hope, patch changes illude me) max with good summoning skill in your ward macro (and even then, moonphase, yay chr+). Lets not forget Hastega (112mp) every 3mins, and you're trying to do Lv70 (ideally) BPs, all 164mp. This doesnt include summoning or perpetuation costs. It looks like you have to frequently (and by frequently, i mean between each BP, 1 tick resting) rest, all for a couple buffs and a Lv70. You cant do that and maintain MP, not even speaking of how poorly that slot is wasted. To BP khimaira, with a bard and corsair as mp support, i RageBP as soon as my timer is up, allowing me to rest 1 tick. You cannot summon, ward BP, rage BP and rest and maintain MP for any lengthy (hell, even short) duration of time. You cannot, its terribly inefficient.

Actually its not inefficient, especially with the huge MP pool SMN has. You should keep in mind that almost all mage jobs are limited by MP in some way. For example, a BLM can not just nuke nuke nuke, they will run out of MP and will need to rest. What a good SMN does is what any good mage does, and that is to learn how manage their MP pool.

By the way, a SMN doing Hastega spends less MP then a WHM or RDM doing it when you take into how many people you can haste with hastega. To be honest, so far it seems the complaints are just really due to people not knowing how to play a SMN to its potential.

**BRP** · 2007-08-19 20:04

Both BLM and SMN have major endurance problems.

**HAcoreRD** · 2007-08-19 20:11

Originally Posted by BRP

Both BLM and SMN have major endurance problems.

agreed.

Adding onto what was said before, summoner's act as their sub unless you throw them against some Wyrms

**Nirokun!** · 2007-08-19 20:12

Originally Posted by Ddong

Last I checked, SMN bloodpact is split into rage and ward. This means you can do a BP every 22ish seconds. You should learn to use SMN bloodpacts to the best of it's abilities instead of saying you are limited to mostly your sub job.

at what point can you rest mp? it is more efficient to save a rage and a ward from the same avatar and use them after a single cast, one right after the other, this prevents time wasted releasing and summoning a new avatar, (earthenward followed by mountain buster). If you do a BP every 23 seconds, you will have spent not enough time resting to compensate for mp lost while BPing/summoning/perpetuating.

A SMN uses it's avatar's abilities to aid them in battle. It can be both offensive and defensive. Don't tell me that SMN is just a WHM. You can do aoe haste, stoneskin, eva/acc boost, stat boost, attack(physical/magical) boost, defense boost, etc. There is so many things a SMN can do through the use of avatars in between the downtime of the level 70 offensive bloodpacts.

SMN is a gimp WHM when you dont use your avatars. The method you speak of is inefficient, and is not utilized because of the heavy MP strain connected to it. My recast for a rage BP is 46 seconds-- to rage again on my timer means i have to account for the time spent summoning another avatar (assuming i dont have a super avatar that has all my BPs), which takes 5 seconds thereabouts, perform a BP(my ward), which takes 2?seconds. This assumes im standing in range of those i wish to ward. Then i release and summon another avatar to rage, another 5ish seconds. 7 seconds for a ward i didnt have to move around for, then another 5 seconds to summon my next avatar. That leaves me 34 seconds. In reality, you arent in AoE fulltime, and you either summon your avatar in the back, or in AoE, then run back out of AoE, all of which requires some time spent running around. Also, when using a BP, you manipulate your avatar's position by running around with them following, or assaulting, this also requires time. You dont really have 34 seconds, its more like like 15 seconds. Did you plan to rest any of the MP back?

**cassiraa** · 2007-08-19 20:15

I don't want to create a huge quote-train, so here's a few bullet points. ^^

*NIN isn't a tank without its subjob, you could say that NIN relies on its subjob as much if not more than it's main job when it comes down to tanking anything.

*We have an abundance of SAM and WHM, lol.

*Your 'nightmare' of keeping 2-3 summon buffs on the PT while doing damage BPs is playing SMN Mainjob fully, isn't it? Do what you can based on the amount of MP you can rest up, Spend the MP for Summoning Magic to buff the PT, howl/growl/ward, leave haste to rdm&whm, damage BP when available, and leave curing to the WHMs.
Isn't that what you want? That's using all of your time and MP to play Summoner Main, And in that circumstance, you say you don't have MP to do it all, well, then you're not curing either and 'playing your sub' in that case.

I'm not saying that it's efficient, SMN could use efficiency boost, I agree. But if you're only playing your subjob, well, that's your own choice. You could be spending all your mp&time playing a SMN main job with blood pacts and resting it back as quick you can.

**Nirokun!** · 2007-08-19 20:21

Originally Posted by Ddong

Originally Posted by Nirokun!

Thats a nightmare you have. Earthen ward will last a variable time depending on TP attacks (92mp). Ecliptic Howl/Growl (57/47mp, respectively), last 3mins each at base duration, and i think you can push them each to 6mins (i would hope, patch changes illude me) max with good summoning skill in your ward macro (and even then, moonphase, yay chr+). Lets not forget Hastega (112mp) every 3mins, and you're trying to do Lv70 (ideally) BPs, all 164mp. This doesnt include summoning or perpetuation costs. It looks like you have to frequently (and by frequently, i mean between each BP, 1 tick resting) rest, all for a couple buffs and a Lv70. You cant do that and maintain MP, not even speaking of how poorly that slot is wasted. To BP khimaira, with a bard and corsair as mp support, i RageBP as soon as my timer is up, allowing me to rest 1 tick. You cannot summon, ward BP, rage BP and rest and maintain MP for any lengthy (hell, even short) duration of time. You cannot, its terribly inefficient.

Actually its not inefficient, especially with the huge MP pool SMN has. You should keep in mind that almost all mage jobs are limited by MP in some way. For example, a BLM can not just nuke nuke nuke, they will run out of MP and will need to rest. What a good SMN does is what any good mage does, and that is to learn how manage their MP pool.

By the way, a SMN doing Hastega spends less MP then a WHM or RDM doing it when you take into how many people you can haste with hastega. To be honest, so far it seems the complaints are just really due to people not knowing how to play a SMN to its potential.

Its terribly inefficient, because max mp never means anything over time. Whm manages mp with /blm conserve mp, efficient healing (hi regen line, cure with good cure+), and damage negation (barspells). Blm has conserve mp and fat aspir, and great dmg/mp nukes. Rdm has conserve mp with blm, and curaga with whm, as well as refresh and convert. But thats not really the problem. Those 3 mage jobs can pop spells in rapid succession, then spend time resting (mostly whm and blm, rdm can stand). SMN cannot do support and damage in rapid succession without giving up resting time, because summoning, assaulting, running avatars towards your PT, its all very slow.

Hastega is good mp-wise for hasting 6 people, but since when does a supporting bard or rdm along with yourself as summoner, require haste? WHM and RDM fire off different spells between haste recasts to make the best of their time spent standing, before resting again. I, for example, wear 23% haste (damn CC, i want to sign my own blessed+1) for my haste spells, and 19% haste for my regen spells, and haste>regen>haste>regen>haste>regen>haste>regen then rest. I can keep up with a fast paced merit PT, a summoner cannot.

**evilpaul** · 2007-08-19 20:24

The SMN magic skill patch didn't affect any buffs that were three minutes in duration or longer already. They need to last 2 minutes or more to be able to keep them up as part of a rotation. Which makes adding Hastega to a buff rotation (as long as you have enough skill to cap it at around 3mins and it's hitting 3+ people) with Ecliptic Howl or Ifrit's Warcry (if you can get ~90 additional skill) the only two really worth considering in EXP. Saves the RDM some time Hasting everyone. Well, other than an Earthen Ward every so often.

You can keep a buff rotation, heal, and throw out some damage BPs, but doing so is going to have MP pretty tight. And it won't work if the DDs aren't /NIN and know how to blink tank well. You need to spend some time /healing and you won't have the time or the MP if you're spamming Cure III on some moron who can't count his shadows. It's usually more efficient just to let some melees plonk away on a mob anyway.

**Koyangi** · 2007-08-19 20:27