Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[BRP]

Smns are decent to good at multiple things too! Buffs for everyone!

I guess you haven't been reading this thread or something, because the pro-fix-SMN think the buffs they grant aren't enough.

[AoshiZ]

to Nirokun!,

I've read alot of your comments but I'm not sure what you are looking for... I would really like to see summoner have some enhancements as well but it is unclear as to what you would like happen.

You said you barely have enough time to sit. Is this looking for some kind of convert like ability? or to be able to blood pact-nonstop so that you can sit like the rest of the mages? (This won't happen because of several reasons I'll explain below)

The tailoring of subjobs is kind of confusing. I think people sub whm with smn because they want to have to ability to heal, and healing requires no skill that the main job already has and can draw from the summoner's large MP pool quite well. But i don't see a problem with subbing other things such as THF (SATA Carbuncle Staff Spirit Taker will let you melee and keep your Avatar out and is kinda fun 300-400MP recharge YUM, not HNM heh), RDM (meh), and BRD (meh raptor maz, herald gaiters go!, and ballad for perpetuation cost). Back to the point though, I'm not sure what you are looking for to define SMN with a subjob this topic is confusing. Although there are alot of combinations out there each of these subs enhances the smn in different ways just like other jobs. I think people like sub whm the most is all.

If there are any changes that are going to happen, I think they should enhance the summoner for what it is.
1. SMN is almost hateless damage for the summoner. (which is the reason they will never give a convert or reduce the blood-pact timing)
2. SMN bloodpacts are fairly MP efficient damage compared to similar blm spells. (lets not compare blm's to smn though since they are elemental versus physical)
3. SMN deals large one time physical damage at a whim
4. SMN can give buffs that other classes can't normally get (Shock Spikes, etc. though it kinda sucked when rdm got phalanx2... but it is a great spell for rdm to have)
5. Avatars can take free damage and have built in resist versus their opposing/own element and -50% physical damage.

Things I would like changed for smn might be...
1. Some ability to allow Avatars to pull hate so they can tank with their tank-like properties.
2. More buffs or changes that would make it worthwhile to put a summoner in a group. (I mean if the shockspikes that summoners gave could stun alot then tanks could use that on MNK NMs with hundred fists, make diablos phalanx stack with RDM phal2)
3. Make the new Elemental attacks scale more with TP to encourage the summoner leaving the avatar out. (like 300 TP = 2000-2500 damage... this is not ridiculus considering its really freaking hard to get that much TP) (Btw you can actually do 70 BPs and build TP quickly... such as Rush which gives like 60TP instantly and then heavenly strike after)
4. Making level 70 bloodpacts able to SC would be really cool and add another dynamic to the flexibilty blu mage and sam provide in creating SC's

Anyhow this is my two cents on how i feel they could improve smn.

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh

[Ryko]

Smns are decent to good at multiple things too! Buffs for everyone!

I guess you haven't been reading this thread or something, because the pro-fix-SMN think the buffs they grant aren't enough.

Then pld's damage capabilities and dynamis /war tanking capabilities isn't good enough either?

[BRP]

You can't invite a SMN to fill a support role at the moment. You can invite a PLD to fill a DD role if he builds himself to do it.

[Ryko]

You can't invite a SMN to fill a support role at the moment. You can invite a PLD to fill a DD role if he builds himself to do it.

Yes, you can, they'll just complain about not wanting to be a gimp white mage with less tools available to them, just like a PLD who wants to DD can say.

[Rocl]

You can't invite a SMN to fill a support role at the moment. You can invite a PLD to fill a DD role if he builds himself to do it.

Yes you can.
I've gotten several invites where my partner on the backline of a merit party is a Summoner. We didn't make 20k/hr, but we made more than the good ol 8-10k/hr pts of yore. (More like 12k~14k)

[LD]

I don't see anybody saying they want SMN to make BB MNKs and RidillAdaberk WARs into lolBB MNKs and lolRidillAdaberk WAR, and also be able to replace a BRD+RDM in merit parties as buffer/healer extraordinaire, so that they can solo 25k+/hr on Greater Colibri.

Nobody's saying they want SMN made better at the expense of other jobs or calling for PLD, WAR, or whatever other job to be nerfed. I have no desire to play DRG at all, and I'm glad SE is talking about giving them some boosts (and 2-handers in general).

No, no one is saying any of that. I am simply saying that the Summoner job absolutely does not deserve an enhancement (despite the fact they will probably will get a new avatar soon, be it from the end of TOA or the begining of WOG.) Especially when there are still jobs with a far more tenuous hold on exp play than SMN's (and lack ANY hold on HNM.) It's not about displacing anyone, it's just that you THINK you need it, and that is wrong.

[BRP]

support =/= healer(though a job like RDM can fulfill both roles). No job can dream of being support without some kind of refresh and the fact SMN's attack bonus BP is Warcry, therefor doesn't stack with Warcry or Boost. They have Ecliptic Howl, which is very nice, but it doesn't help that is on a variable. Hastega would be really nice if it's base duration was nearly equal to normal Haste(without skill over cap bonus). You are left with five defensive BPs(two being spikes) and enthunder. MAB is very nice for events, but also based on a variable and because of their lack of Refresh, people would prefer a RDM or BRD in a manaburn party or long-term situation(however rare). I may be missing a BP or two, but it's clear they can't even lick the bottom of a BRD or COR's boot at this point.

[Ryko]

support =/= healer(though a job like RDM can fulfill both roles). No job can dream of being support without some kind of refresh

...What? Then I'm guessing white mages aren't a support class?

[BRP]

To me there are five "party" slots:

Tank
(DoT) DD
Support
Healer
Magical or Spike DD

The current trend is to cut out Magical DD and Tank due to focus on increasing melee damage. Healers will always be necessary at some point(but even better if they are also support). A Support is someone who buffs or debuffs and pretty much runs the show from the backline.

People would like it if SMN was Magical/Spike DD and Support. Right now they are very, very weak support and healers primarily because of /WHM.

EDIT: WHM are the main "healers" of FFXI(however poor their endurance is compared to a RDM), but they are able to give small amount of support in form of Haste and Protect/Shell spells(and I guess you could toss in enfeebles), but nothing on the level of primarily support jobs. SMN hardly fills a support(or DD) role as well as they do a healer role which they have simply because of /WHM. This is what people mean they speak of "playing only with their subjob".

[Naygor]

By that logic most meripos don't have any healers and if that's going on people are going to die. You see how your chart is retarded and doesn't make any sense?

Edit: Your logic is still retarded even with your edit.

[BRP]

Naygor, I'm afraid you calling something retarded has lost any umph you thought it had. As I made it clear in the edit(and before the edit I think actually) which you mention, jobs can fill multiple slots(and how they do so varies as well).

Your average merit party skips the "requirement" of tanks because they are filled with a bunch of mini-tanks who's defensive ability goes up a great deal thanks to /NIN and sharing hate. Because it's based on fast damage and fast DoT and generally support focusing on boosting melee, BLM and SMN's still of throwing out big attacks for a big MP cost has no place in such an environment, crossing out the need of spike damage.

While BLM is a straight endurance problem, SMN's issue is also that they can't play the support role, making 50-60% of the job SE gave to them useless.

[Naygor]

Right, jobs can fill multiple slots, but smn isn't support. I'm sure that's how it works.

[Nirokun!]

to Nirokun!,

I've read alot of your comments but I'm not sure what you are looking for... I would really like to see summoner have some enhancements as well but it is unclear as to what you would like happen.

A lot of stuff thats been said in this thread seem nice. Two that i personally like would to be given an avatar that doesnt cost mp with no WOW BPs that is good DoT. With refresh, you have an avatar with good DoT, not perpetuation, and poor/good BPs to act as a WS, and every smn in the world would be happy to merit with their pet acting as a DD. Another idea i liked was to give the actual summoner their own support spells to use between BPs.

You said you barely have enough time to sit. Is this looking for some kind of convert like ability? or to be able to blood pact-nonstop so that you can sit like the rest of the mages? (This won't happen because of several reasons I'll explain below)

I said that in the context of someone's playstyle, keeping up 3 buffs and using the rage command on its timer. (I would like to be ably to BP nonstop during my 2hr, it would make max mp mean something, and give summoners zerg ability [PClaw after PClaw after PClaw until no mp would be sexy])

The tailoring of subjobs is kind of confusing. I think people sub whm with smn because they want to have to ability to heal, and healing requires no skill that the main job already has and can draw from the summoner's large MP pool quite well.

I dont think summoners sub whm to heal as much as they sub whm to "earn their keep" in the party slot. We recognize our mainjob abilities are situational, and take our fat mp bar, teeny hp bar, and cure people.

But i don't see a problem with subbing other things such as THF (SATA Carbuncle Staff Spirit Taker will let you melee and keep your Avatar out and is kinda fun 300-400MP recharge YUM, not HNM heh), RDM (meh), and BRD (meh raptor maz, herald gaiters go!, and ballad for perpetuation cost).

/THF couldnt hit anything above maybe EM, because summoner as a melee is bad
/RDM is good for that lamia assault, but i've never subbed rdm elsewhere
/BRD maybe in a SMN PT where your refresh comes from a rdm? or cor? lol

Back to the point though, I'm not sure what you are looking for to define SMN with a subjob this topic is confusing. Although there are alot of combinations out there each of these subs enhances the smn in different ways just like other jobs. I think people like sub whm the most is all.

Its not so much that im looking for a subjob to help summoner, its that im looking for changes that would make my mainjob (the SMN in SMN/WHM) be more meaningful to a LS event that isnt a wyrm, or khimaira.

If there are any changes that are going to happen, I think they should enhance the summoner for what it is.
1. SMN is almost hateless damage for the summoner. (which is the reason they will never give a convert or reduce the blood-pact timing)
2. SMN bloodpacts are fairly MP efficient damage compared to similar blm spells. (lets not compare blm's to smn though since they are elemental versus physical)
3. SMN deals large one time physical damage at a whim
4. SMN can give buffs that other classes can't normally get (Shock Spikes, etc. though it kinda sucked when rdm got phalanx2... but it is a great spell for rdm to have)
5. Avatars can take free damage and have built in resist versus their opposing/own element and -50% physical damage.

3. i dont really understand "at a whim" lol, i guess you mean i dont require much support to do 500-700dmg at a HNM, but the introduction of COR (and its rolls) was nice
4. it doesnt matter if we can give buffs, if the buffs suck, or if using them is impractical

[BRP]

Gross exaggerations isn't going to help either argument.

The great difference between "Hey, I want everything" and what I'm saying is that SMN was obviously meant to fulfill some sort of support role. It has support Bloodpacts. The problem comes that they don't have the very important refresh and their support bloodpacts are either crap or a variable(which wouldn't be so bad if the former wasn't crap).

If a WAR's berserk/aggressor gave 5% attack and accuracy, their weapons were all B or C-ranked, and they were forced to tank and only tank with /NIN in 95% situations in the game, then you can compare it to WAR.

[Nirokun!]

I'm upset that Warrior doesn't get more attack boosts like Dark Knight, enmity shedding abilities like Dragoon, instant TP gain like Samurai, and hate transfer like Thief. S-E needs to fix all this because Warrior just

isn't a good job if it can't do everything

. It's like they expect different people to have different jobs so that they can experiment with team dynamics and approach each situation differently as their party allows.

And that's just dumb.

i dont think this argument holds water because warrior isnt a defined hybrid job. the ward and rage BPs being separated is clear evidence that SE wants SMN to be another hybrid, but as it stands, as a hybrid, it fails.

Look at successful hybrid jobs: RDM, BLU, COR, and arguably PLD and DRK

[Ryko]

and they were forced to tank and only tank with /NIN in 95% situations in the game

i dont think this argument holds water because warrior isnt a defined hybrid job.

Yes, it is. Everything about that job is defined by its balance, the only reason it (in function) loses on being a hybrid is that it can't efficiently do everything at once without /NIN (and uh... you don't take a WAR/NIN if you don't expect it to pull hate and tank a majority of the time).

[Toth]

Every job has their strength and weakness. What BRP is saying is that one of SMN's strengths is not as strong as people believe. Personally, I would love to see SMN up their as strong support job but alas, until they get Refreshga (eww....) and a Boost type BP, they cannot fully claim that role. Right now, a SMN + RDM merit party can do pretty well but it will still pale to a BRD/COR + RDM party.

edit: you beat me to it BRP lol

edit 2: 'i dont think this argument holds water because warrior isnt a defined hybrid job.'

A WAR is meant to do one thing: DD. C'mon now. Yes, they can somewhat tank thanks to Defender but DD is the name of their game. /NIN grew out of a need for survival purposes to offset their DD and DW only further enhanced their offensive output. Not much of what a WAR does varies from this, Ryko, so your fancy smiles aren't proving your point.

[Kaslo]

Watch the update correspond to the Blue Dragon release in hopes by SE that we will go buy it during the update, of course it will fail cause we will all be hitting the refresh button here to see new equipment ;p

That would make sense if Blue Dragon were designed, published, or otherwise controled by SE, and it isn't.

Grrrr I always forget it's not SE's, all the previous SE people involved throws me off ><

[Toth]

SMN is supposed to be a mix of white mage (Healing BPs), black mage (elemental BPs), and red mage (buffing and debuffing BPs) though. The limitation for SMN has always been that you needed 1 min per BP, which heavily restricted the amount of each class you could do. The splitting helped this somewhat, but all it really did was allow SMNs to finally use their offensive BPs w/o angering your parties who wanted their buffs.