Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Ryko]

A WAR is meant to do one thing: DD. C'mon now. Yes, they can somewhat tank thanks to Defender but DD is the name of their game. /NIN grew out of a need for survival purposes to offset their DD and DW only further enhanced their offensive output. Not much of what a WAR does varies from this, Ryko, so your fancy smiles aren't proving your point.

A WAR is a hybrid job, it was built as a hybrid job, it functions as a hybrid job. Granted we're really good at one aspect of it and due to the battle system we can only do the second part of it with a specific subjob (sounds familiar) but you're out of your gourd if you're trying to contend otherwise.

[LD]

It's Mistwalker, which has a lot of people from Square and Enix fame, so w/e.

BLU has firm limits and will more than likely specialize depending on the situation (which is usually DD.) COR is a solid DD, but not a great one. RDM is...well RDM is just broken, to be frank. The only thing they really lack is physical damage.

A lot of you don't seem to get that we're not misunderstanding what you're saying, we just completely disagree.

[BRP]

You have a buttload of MP and auto-refresh, you get another piece with refresh on it, and there a wide variety of items out there of easy-to-middling difficulty to obtain that make it even easier for you to use your MP effectively.

Are you arguing this is enough for a SMN to become the support/DD people want it to be? Because apparently it's not enough. Maybe the issue has more to do with what the SMN is actually doing?

Not only that, but S-E has already made a series of changes that allows SMN to do some very respectable damage with their higher-level bloodpacts while still maintaining the ability to heal or mitigate damage.

I repeat what I said above. Great spike damage, yes, very useful in long end-game fights, yes, but in the more common environment of exp and assault-like activities? Not so useful when you start to lag behind.

You're creating an imaginary position within the job system and then complaining that SMN isn't in it because it lacks one spell.

I'm make it clear that it's not just refresh, but a majority of their support BPs being flawed. It has to be two things. They really need a refresh BP and they really need improved support BPs.

you've already got almost all the useful traits of a White Mage, a Red Mage, and a Black Mage, and you're complaining that you can't be a Bard, too.

Ehm... you'll have to clarify this for me. Unless you actually mean Clear Mind, which sadly isn't as useful as it ought to be, due to be not being able to rest while summoning.

Edit: A Hybrid job is ALL WARRIOR IS.

WAR is a hybrid job if you consider it's ability as a bloodtank thanks to Defender and Provoke and access to high defense gear. However, bloodtanking isn't in a very nice spot right now. /NIN gives WAR most of it's tanking prowess. I would call a WAR a hybrid job due to combing damage dealing and tanking ability, but these days, almost all of it's damage mitigation ability comes from it's sub job.

[Ryko]

WAR is a hybrid job if you consider it's ability as a bloodtank thanks to Defender and Provoke and access to high defense gear. However, bloodtanking isn't in a very nice spot right now. /NIN gives WAR most of it's tanking prowess. I would call a WAR a hybrid job due to combing damage dealing and tanking ability, but these days, almost all of it's damage mitigation ability comes from it's sub job.

So how, exactly, is that any different from the spot a summoner's in?

[BRP]

WAR is a hybrid job if you consider it's ability as a bloodtank thanks to Defender and Provoke and access to high defense gear. However, bloodtanking isn't in a very nice spot right now. /NIN gives WAR most of it's tanking prowess. I would call a WAR a hybrid job due to combing damage dealing and tanking ability, but these days, almost all of it's damage mitigation ability comes from it's sub job.

So how, exactly, is that any different from the spot a summoner's in?

I'm all for fixing of Bloodtanking if that's what you mean.

EDIT: And WAR are better bloodtanks than SMN are support.

[LD]

I think we're done here. -_-

[Ryko]

No one cares about bloodtanking, my question is how the hell is SMN a hybrid job but doesn't WAR count when they both fulfill multiple roles at the same time but require a specific subjob to do the second one?

[BRP]

No one cares about bloodtanking, my question is how the hell is SMN a hybrid job but doesn't WAR count when they both fulfill multiple roles at the same time but require a specific subjob to do the second one?

I admit WAR is a hybrid job, I can't speak for others.

[Naygor]

I repeat what I said above. Great spike damage, yes, very useful in long end-game fights, yes, but in the more common environment of exp and assault-like activities? Not so useful when you start to lag behind.

Are you serious? You acknowledge it's good in endgame, but you're complaining it's not good in exp?! How many jobs do you think complain about it being the other way around or even the same thing.

[Nirokun!]

i dont think this argument holds water because warrior isnt a defined hybrid job.

Yes, it is. Everything about that job is defined by its balance, the only reason it (in function) loses on being a hybrid is that it can't efficiently do everything at once without /NIN (and uh... you don't take a WAR/NIN if you don't expect it to pull hate and tank a majority of the time).

a warrior less a hybrid DD/tank as whm is a hybrid healer/enfeebler lol

i'd say a war is a DD with some damage mitigation, and i'd say a whm is a healer with some enfeebling capacity

but i wouldnt say whm is a hybrid job

(besides anyone can tank with enough support, did you hear about the whm/nin that tanked tiamat for like 20mins[?] here? would you say whm is a tank too?)

[BRP]

I repeat what I said above. Great spike damage, yes, very useful in long end-game fights, yes, but in the more common environment of exp and assault-like activities? Not so useful when you start to lag behind.

Are you serious? You acknowledge it's good in endgame, but you're complaining it's not good in exp?! How many jobs do you think complain about it being the other way around or even the same thing.

I feel like this was mentioned before. Every melee job, with a possible exception to PUP depending on your opinion on the job, can fulfill the role of DD in the both situations. They won't be the best, that's granted, something that should be fixed over time indeed.

The great difference is that SMN can not do much good in one situation and they are completely unable to fulfill the role BRD or RDM fill. DRG, may it be much weaker, can still take a WAR's place. A SMN can never fill a BRD's shoes. SMN doesn't have to be be as good as BRD, they just need to be able to reach the minimum. Let skill or certain backline combinations settle it from there.

It's not just exp.

There are more "exp-like" end-game events than there is long Wyrm like fights, probably thanks to ToAU.

"Not everyone can be good at exp" is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. Are you arguing the game being broken/unbalanced is okay or that the game isn't broken/unbalanced? You can only pick one.

[Naygor]

It must be exp because they're pretty decent and sought after endgame. Of course, this would mean you'd have totally ignored the multiple times we've heard people say they've got pretty nice exp on smn in meripos. Not the best, but more than sufficient.

[BRP]

It must be exp because they're pretty decent and sought after endgame. Of course, this would mean you'd have totally ignored the multiple times we've heard people say they've got pretty nice exp on smn in meripos. Not the best, but more than sufficient.

Can you tell me what they were doing in those parties? I get this odd sensation it was main healing with perhaps just a tiny bit of weak buffing BPs being thrown out.

[evilpaul]

They're arguing SMN should suck ass at EXP because it's useful at Tiamat.

They've been arguing that for about 8 pages now.

It's a waste of time to argue any further, because that's just how they want the game to be.

Hopefully, SE disagrees with them, and if they ever release some job update notes, and after the .dat miners dig up some info on what the new grips are (why do I have a feeling that they'll break the program and we won't know for a day or two longer than usual?), maybe they will.

[Nirokun!]

No one cares about bloodtanking, my question is how the hell is SMN a hybrid job but doesn't WAR count when they both fulfill multiple roles at the same time but require a specific subjob to do the second one?

smn has rage BPs to DD
smn has ward BPs to support

warrior has defender, one defense bonus trait, and resist virus to make it a tank. maybe you could include C(reg, +, and -) defensive combat skills as tanking skills, too. the rest of it is geared to DD

edit: wording, added "as"

[Naygor]

It must be exp because they're pretty decent and sought after endgame. Of course, this would mean you'd have totally ignored the multiple times we've heard people say they've got pretty nice exp on smn in meripos. Not the best, but more than sufficient.

Can you tell me what they were doing in those parties? I get this odd sensation it was main healing with perhaps just a tiny bit of weak buffing BPs being thrown out.

It wouldn't make a lick of difference what they were doing, the point is they can get good exp so quit whining.

[Nirokun!]

It must be exp because they're pretty decent and sought after endgame. Of course, this would mean you'd have totally ignored the multiple times we've heard people say they've got pretty nice exp on smn in meripos. Not the best, but more than sufficient.

Can you tell me what they were doing in those parties? I get this odd sensation it was main healing with perhaps just a tiny bit of weak buffing BPs being thrown out.

It wouldn't make a lick of difference what they were doing, the point is they can get good exp so quit whining.

read the thread again, playing your support job at 90(arbitrary number)% of ffxi content is not the focus of any job in this game except smn.

[Ryko]

i dont think this argument holds water because warrior isnt a defined hybrid job.

Yes, it is. Everything about that job is defined by its balance, the only reason it (in function) loses on being a hybrid is that it can't efficiently do everything at once without /NIN (and uh... you don't take a WAR/NIN if you don't expect it to pull hate and tank a majority of the time).

a warrior less a hybrid DD/tank as whm is a hybrid healer/enfeebler lol

i'd say a war is a DD with some damage mitigation, and i'd say a whm is a healer with some enfeebling capacity

but i wouldnt say whm is a hybrid job

(besides anyone can tank with enough support, did you hear about the whm/nin that tanked tiamat for like 20mins[?] here? would you say whm is a tank too?)

Except if you need someone to run in and face a mob down a WAR/NIN is capable of doing so without batting an eye. It's not in the same category as the "any job with the right support" crap, as it can do the job more than fine with the same shit you would give any tank. It's not in the same category as some retard who managed to not die to tiamat for a grand whoamg 20 minutes or a DRK who's tanked all 3 wyrms in the slightest.

read the thread again, playing your support job at 90(arbitrary number)% of ffxi content is not the focus of any job in this game except smn.

WAR falls into this category, PLD falls into this category for most shells, we've been through this already.

[Koyangi]

as NIN/DRK, you're "Playing your subjob" every time you stun, Last Resort, Sleep, Bind.
You won't hold hate without your subjob, your job is defined by the sub you use.

The NIN is still being a NIN, which is a tank, the /DRK is directly helping it use what it can do best, cycle through 7 shadows, parry, wear -dmg gear that it has a good access to, and +enmity gear. Outside of a PLD/DRK with Aegis and Dring no other job can benefit from the ability to hold hate as awesome as /DRK can, it's helping the NIN do what it can already do, just much better. To drive the point more here, the NIN is still doing a very important thing extremely unique to itself, casting shadows, if it didn't, all the spamming of it's subjobs spells do 0 good(que the possibly 2nd option of PLD/DRK which stretches it anyway).

as WAR/NIN, you're "Playing your subjob" every time you cast Utsusemi, hold hate tanking.
You Totally rewrite your entire playing style if you go /thf, /nin, /mnk, /drg. Everything changes based on it.

Technically every time you lose a shadow you lose hate, but yes, you mitigate damage which would have made you lose a lot more and someone else's manapool too. Except in this case, when you /NIN you are still everything about your main job be it pld or war. You are still doing WAR things, DDing, WSing, using JAs when appropriate. All of the sub's you listed above still makes you a WAR at the event, and a WAR is still a DD with all of them.

as SAM/THF you're "Playing your subjob" every time you TA&Overwhelm or SA&Gekko for spike damage or hate control.
SAM/THF often times is playing the role of it's support job, This is normal.

You are still doing SAM things, if a THF main can do it, why isn't he there besides as a treasure hunter placebo effect? I think it's because of Meditate, awesome WS/SC partners, Hasso, Seigan, Third Eye, and Overwhlem, which is omg! SAM stuff.

as SMN/WHM you're "Playing your subjob" every time you cast a cure or status removal to help the party between BPs.
When it affects YOU, it's different. When YOU have to cast cure, it's different. because this time, It's affecting you.

This is exactly where your logic fails, in every example so far, the subjob didn't stop the main job from being the main job, it made something that certain job does much better. I can SJ anything in FFXI to SMN and my Avatar's will still have the same -perpetuation timer, attack, accuracy, evasion, HP, MP drain every 3 seconds, casting time(lol /rdm), and MP gained while resting since Clear Mind from a SJ doesn't stack. If I cast a cure spell or erase or paralyna as a SMN it has absolutely nothing to do with my main job and what my main does, any job in FFXI can /WHM and do the exact same thing for the exact same effect, a SMN won't /DRK and all of a sudden become a tank. Same can be said for BST and PUP, absolutely no SJ enhances what the specialty of their main job does, it will only allow them be a level 37 insert Job here in addition to what they may already be doing.

And to Ryko, you defined WAR by what /NIN can do to it, which granted is a lot, but absolutely no SJ can define SMN nor change how a SMN does SMN things.

[Ryko]

And to Ryko, you defined WAR by what /NIN can do to it, which granted is a lot, but absolutely no SJ can define SMN nor change how a SMN does SMN things.

It doesn't matter, they're in the same category. A job whose role is largely defined in a lot of events by what their subjob brings to the table. Like I said, casting shadows is not a WAR thing just like curing isn't a smn thing.