Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Remyo]

I hope we get a new news thing from SE about the new job adjustments or something. today being monday.

[Hapernack]

It must be exp because they're pretty decent and sought after endgame. Of course, this would mean you'd have totally ignored the multiple times we've heard people say they've got pretty nice exp on smn in meripos. Not the best, but more than sufficient.

Can you tell me what they were doing in those parties? I get this odd sensation it was main healing with perhaps just a tiny bit of weak buffing BPs being thrown out.

It wouldn't make a lick of difference what they were doing, the point is they can get good exp so quit whining.

"whining"? Where the heck are you coming from? Who cares if they can get good exp? Point is they rely heavily on their curing abilities to be of use to those PTs not that "the point is they can get good exp". You're way off in left field.

[Nirokun!]

a warrior less a hybrid DD/tank as whm is a hybrid healer/enfeebler lol

i'd say a war is a DD with some damage mitigation, and i'd say a whm is a healer with some enfeebling capacity

but i wouldnt say whm is a hybrid job

(besides anyone can tank with enough support, did you hear about the whm/nin that tanked tiamat for like 20mins[?] here? would you say whm is a tank too?)

Except if you need someone to run in and face a mob down a WAR/NIN is capable of doing so without batting an eye. It's not in the same category as the "any job with the right support" crap, as it can do the job more than fine with the same shit you would give any tank. It's not in the same category as some retard who managed to not die to tiamat for a grand whoamg 20 minutes or a DRK who's tanked all 3 wyrms in the slightest.

war can tank an exp level mob with support (sleep/para/slow/blind/elegy/etc), but they cant do jack on their own on anything that matters. NIN can, PLD can, they are tanks. i dont remember wars being able to solo because they required support. And that grand whoamg 20mins i believe was solo tanking til the rest of his LS mobilized

read the thread again, playing your support job at 90(arbitrary number)% of ffxi content is not the focus of any job in this game except smn.

WAR falls into this category, PLD falls into this category for most shells, we've been through this already.

Reading comprehension. I made a post about WAR and PLD (i believe in response to casiraa [sp?]) still acting as their mainjob acts, with support of their /NIN subjob. They are not actively playing ninja, they are not enfeebling, they are not evasion tanking, they are not running a elemental wheel. SMN/WHM plays as its subjob HEAVILY due to the lack of support power from the main summoner's abilities. That is a problem we wish to see fixed.

[Nirokun!]

And to Ryko, you defined WAR by what /NIN can do to it, which granted is a lot, but absolutely no SJ can define SMN nor change how a SMN does SMN things.

It doesn't matter, they're in the same category. A job whose role is largely defined in a lot of events by what their subjob brings to the table. Like I said, casting shadows is not a WAR thing just like curing isn't a smn thing.

Read the post i made to Beckwin

edit: damn your teamsigs, that post was to you

Read the post i made to you above this post >_>

[Ryko]

Reading comprehension. I made a post about WAR and PLD (i believe in response to casiraa [sp?]) still acting as their mainjob acts, with support of their /NIN subjob. They are not actively playing ninja, they are not enfeebling, they are not evasion tanking, they are not running a elemental wheel.

And what end-game NIN does any of that at 90% of events anymore? The only bone I'd throw to you is the enfeebling but it's moreso either to pull in something like limbus or for hate on anything high level, otherwise it doesn't get touched. A NIN is a blinktank, first and foremost, a WAR subbing nin for all intents and purposes is doing the same thing a NIN would be doing in the same situation.

war can tank an exp level mob with support (sleep/para/slow/blind/elegy/etc), but they cant do jack on their own on anything that matters. NIN can, PLD can, they are tanks.

Aside from stalling with low support a NIN or a PLD would effectively get shitstomped just as quick without the same support you would give to a WAR tank. It's not speculation either, they do have a higher degree of survivability but it is not "well we can do without the bard" level in most cases.

SMN/WHM plays as its subjob HEAVILY due to the lack of support power from the main summoner's abilities. That is a problem we wish to see fixed.

And a WAR plays as its subjob HEAVILY due to the lack of defensive power from the main warrior's abilities. This is a problem no one thinks twice to see fixed nor really care if it does.

[Koyangi]

Reading comprehension. I made a post about WAR and PLD (i believe in response to casiraa [sp?]) still acting as their mainjob acts, with support of their /NIN subjob. They are not actively playing ninja, they are not enfeebling, they are not evasion tanking, they are not running a elemental wheel.

And what end-game NIN does any of that at 90% of events anymore? The only bone I'd throw to you is the enfeebling but it's moreso either to pull in something like limbus or for hate on anything high level, otherwise it doesn't get touched. A NIN is a blinktank, first and foremost, a WAR subbing nin for all intents and purposes is doing the same thing a NIN would be doing in the same situation.

NIN's inital inception as a tank has evolved to much more of a DD nowadays, but it doesnt mean it's ability to tank /war or /drk are obsolete.

[Ryko]

Reading comprehension. I made a post about WAR and PLD (i believe in response to casiraa [sp?]) still acting as their mainjob acts, with support of their /NIN subjob. They are not actively playing ninja, they are not enfeebling, they are not evasion tanking, they are not running a elemental wheel.

And what end-game NIN does any of that at 90% of events anymore? The only bone I'd throw to you is the enfeebling but it's moreso either to pull in something like limbus or for hate on anything high level, otherwise it doesn't get touched. A NIN is a blinktank, first and foremost, a WAR subbing nin for all intents and purposes is doing the same thing a NIN would be doing in the same situation.

NIN's inital inception as a tank has evolved to much more of a DD nowadays, but it doesnt mean it's ability to tank /war or /drk are obsolete.

That wasn't what I was responding to in the slightest nor any part of what I said. No one runs an elemental wheel, few ninjas evasion tank as anything but a novelty or on jeuno HNMs (maybe) and enfeebling is a means to an end, you're not inviting a ninja for their mighty hojo prowess. This isn't 2005 and we're out of crawler's nest, why am I the only one even acting like it.

[Nirokun!]

Reading comprehension. I made a post about WAR and PLD (i believe in response to casiraa [sp?]) still acting as their mainjob acts, with support of their /NIN subjob. They are not actively playing ninja, they are not enfeebling, they are not evasion tanking, they are not running a elemental wheel.

And what end-game NIN does any of that at 90% of events anymore? The only bone I'd throw to you is the enfeebling but it's moreso either to pull in something like limbus or for hate on anything high level, otherwise it doesn't get touched. A NIN is a blinktank, first and foremost, a WAR subbing nin for all intents and purposes is doing the same thing a NIN would be doing in the same situation.

war cant/doesnt solo tank, it co-tanks in groups. thats about as tank~y as i've seen war, but maybe they do more? i havent seen the LS use tanks outside of pld, nin, rdm, and bard (which was broke'd )

[Ryko]

war cant/doesnt solo tank, it co-tanks in groups

Most PLDs and NINs nowadays don't solo tank either. For every rukenshin there is out there running 1 man defenses against Bahamut there are hundreds who co-tank because it's a pragmatic thing to do. When push comes to shove and you're down to 1 tank then yes a WAR is at a large disadvantage but a tank has never been defined by its ability to run at it balls first with lacking support or someone backing them up.

[evilpaul]

There was a WAR/WHM tanking Tiamat thread somewhere around here?

[Ryko]

Yeah with 2 gjallarhorn bards in 2005, I've been a war long enough and I have enough of a memory to remember the IRON glory days. I also hear that there's a HNMLS on remora rocking 7 aegises and koenig shoes that PLD/WAR tank tiamat.

[Nirokun!]

(did you add stuff? idk, i saw more, and im not deleting the old post to respond to stuff i didnt see/(added), so editing stuff i responded to already~)

war can tank an exp level mob with support (sleep/para/slow/blind/elegy/etc), but they cant do jack on their own on anything that matters. NIN can, PLD can, they are tanks.

Aside from stalling with low support a NIN or a PLD would effectively get shitstomped just as quick without the same support you would give to a WAR tank. It's not speculation either, they do have a higher degree of survivability but it is not "well we can do without the bard" level in most cases.

How hard a mob are we talking here, i was talking about exp-level mobs (like adds), which nin and pld can tank fine, but war cannot. Sounds like you're talking about HNM >_> lol

SMN/WHM plays as its subjob HEAVILY due to the lack of support power from the main summoner's abilities. That is a problem we wish to see fixed.

And a WAR plays as its subjob HEAVILY due to the lack of defensive power from the main warrior's abilities. This is a problem no one thinks twice to see fixed nor really care if it does.

well i guess we disagree on what it means to play a sub. warrior co-tanks with /nin, fuck, thf can co-tank with nin, i can co-tank with /nin on my whm, blm, blu, anyone you invite to a merit PT can co-tank with /nin. It doesnt make my whm, blm, blu, or anyone invited to a merit PT a tank, they're just DDs who sub nin to mitigate dmg. /NIN doesnt make you a tank, it keeps you from being a MP-sink. Sure, /NIN makes PLD a better tank, but it was already a tank.

SMN is made a healer by /whm. Why? Why is that? summoner has the healing abilities: Healing ruby, healing ruby II, spring water, whispering wind. All on one-minute timers. Was summoner a healer to begin with? no.

[Ryko]

How hard a mob are we talking here, i was talking about exp-level mobs (like adds), which nin and pld can tank fine, but war cannot. Sounds like you're talking about HNM >_> lol

That would be because my WAR's tanked HNMs and mobs like dyna adds and exp mobs are easy enough to stomp out of the way before I hit the floor. It's been rather frustrating talking to someone who rather obviously hasn't glanced at the job (granted it hasn't changed in 3 years) for more than a second beyond level 10 but I'm actually rather dumbfounded that you would state that a WAR can't solo tank exp-level mobs...

[Nirokun!]

war cant/doesnt solo tank, it co-tanks in groups

Most PLDs and NINs nowadays don't solo tank either. For every rukenshin there is out there running 1 man defenses against Bahamut there are hundreds who co-tank because it's a pragmatic thing to do. When push comes to shove and you're down to 1 tank then yes a WAR is at a large disadvantage but a tank has never been defined by its ability to run at it balls first with lacking support or someone backing them up.

they dont, but the intention of a PLD was to be a heavily armored, hate-generating, self-curing tank. was the intention of implementing SMN only to sub whm and heal? or was summoner supposed to be summoning shit (idk, we have 10 ffxi games before this, not counting those spinoffs i never played )

[Nirokun!]

How hard a mob are we talking here, i was talking about exp-level mobs (like adds), which nin and pld can tank fine, but war cannot. Sounds like you're talking about HNM >_> lol

That would be because my WAR's tanked HNMs and mobs like dyna adds and exp mobs are easy enough to stomp out of the way before I hit the floor. It's been rather frustrating talking to someone who rather obviously hasn't glanced at the job (granted it hasn't changed in 3 years) for more than a second beyond level 10 but I'm actually rather dumbfounded that you would state that a WAR can't solo tank exp-level mobs...

go fight an EM mob solo and tell me how well you tanked that biotch

i've 'tanked' dyna adds on blm with sleepga and blink/stoneskin, im not a tank

[Naygor]

Clearly the intention was to leave people to their own devices and thus moan and piss that it needs to be buffed.

[Ryko]

go fight an EM mob solo and tell me how well you tanked that biotch

Well first of all soloing some dinky mob is not tanking as you're not worried about your enmity gain.

Secondly

/equip Ranged "Armbrust"
/equip Ranged "Sleep Bolt"

/ra <t>
/ma Utsusemi: Ichi <me>

Been there, done that. With the signet bonuses hell all I even have to do is switch my adaberk for a scorp harness or askar body.

[Nirokun!]

go fight an EM mob solo and tell me how well you tanked that biotch

Well first of all soloing some dinky mob is not tanking as you're not worried about your enmity gain.

Secondly

/equip Ranged "Armbrust"
/equip Ranged "Sleep Bolt"

/ra <t>
/ma Utsusemi: Ichi <me>

Been there, done that. With the signet bonuses hell all I even have to do is switch my adaberk for a scorp harness or askar body.

idk, i've generally found that good solo ability had a correlation with survivability. But sleep bolts wont work on a HNM Still not a tank ryko~

(why are we talking about tanking? this is about smn :D)

[Ryko]

idk, i've generally found that good solo ability had a correlation with survivability. But sleep bolts wont work on a HNM Still not a tank ryko~

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either I can't solo mobs (which has nothing to do with a tank's ability to do anything worthwhile) with the tools available to me or I can't use said tools or resources that any tank would have available to them and as such can't tank HNMs. Seeing as how I can and have done both (solo tanked exp and tanked HNMs on WAR) this is purposefully tying my hands behind my back since you keep dancing around the argument at hand. Pick one.

[Koyangi]

Tanking a mob is putting a sleep bolt on it? In a solo situation, that's you putting up sneak and invisible and hauling ass, because you're sleeping it because you can't "tank"(solo) it. You don't "tank" slept mob's.