Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[evilpaul]

I wonder if people would say PUP sucks/is broken if they had a large MP pool and/or could make their Automatons spam Cure III on party members? They have pretty much the same gear available that a SMN does.

[Nirokun!]

idk, i've generally found that good solo ability had a correlation with survivability. But sleep bolts wont work on a HNM Still not a tank ryko~

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either I can't solo mobs (which has nothing to do with a tank's ability to do anything worthwhile) with the tools available to me or I can't use said tools or resources that any tank would have available to them and as such can't tank HNMs. Seeing as how I can and have done both (solo tanked exp and tanked HNMs on WAR) this is purposefully tying my hands behind my back since you keep dancing around the argument at hand. Pick one.

If i give the nod to your tanking ability, will you in turn nod at smn needing serious changes allowing it to play smn, and not /whm?

(i was thinking that making spirits free, and active, [and omg not retarded,] would help. amazing helper, LIGHTSPIRIT! gogo my little star~)

[Ryko]

Tanking a mob is putting a sleep bolt on it? In a solo situation, that's you putting up sneak and invisible and hauling ass, because you're sleeping it because you can't "tank"(solo) it. You don't "tank" slept mob's.

This is retarded. It doesn't sleep for a long duration, it's basically a stall maneuever so you can put your shadows back up. You then beat on it until you have to cast ni, cast ni, beat on it till you have to cast ichi, shoot it, recast shadows. It's as much a valid method of soloing as any and furthermore when the hell has soloing a mob meant a thing in terms of tanking? Last I checked plenty of non tank classes solo shit every day.

[Sekkite]

I'd think the bigger difference between WAR/NIN and SMN/WHM is that for WAR/NIN, NIN augments a warrior's main job. It enhances what the job is already good at; dual wield letting warrior deal damage better and utsusemi to allow the warrior to deal that damage safely. However, for SMN/WHM, WHM is no way augments the SMN part of the job/subjob combo. It adds a new role to the SMN to fulfill whenever he/she is unable to do anything with the avatar due to blood pact cooldown, but in no way does it enhance the use of Blood Pacts, reduce the cooldown of Blood Pacts, or strengthen the avatar in any way.

That is the biggest problem I see in summoner. They have no sub job that enhances their main role.

[Koyangi]

I'd think the bigger difference between WAR/NIN and SMN/WHM is that for WAR/NIN, NIN augments a warrior's main job. It enhances what the job is already good at (dual wield letting warrior deal damage better) and utsusemi to allow the warrior to deal that damage safely. However, for SMN/WHM, WHM is no way augments the SMN part of the job/subjob combo. It adds a new role to the SMN to fulfill whenever he/she is unable to do anything with the avatar due to blood pact cooldown, but in no way does it enhance the use of Blood Pacts, reduce the cooldown of Blood Pacts, or strengthen the avatar in any way.

That is the biggest problem I see in summoner. They have no sub job that enhances their main role.

Thanks for summarizing my (big) post which seems to have glazed over everyone's head so far lol

[LD]

How the fuck is that different from MNK/NIN?

[Sekkite]

How the fuck is that different from MNK/NIN?

NIN sub on MNK lets the MNK deal the damage safer then a WAR sub. It is a different enhancement then what a WAR sub gives (defensive instead of offensive), but it enhances the job's main role nonetheless. Hell, a WHM sub enhances a role that a MNK has, with giving a little extra boost to Chi Blast.

As I said before though, there is no subjob that enhances aspects of SMN. Subjobs only allow for additional roles for them.

[LD]

Wrong, it does not enhance the main role, it allows the MNK to mitigate damage. It does not help to create more damage, which is MNK's main role. /NIN expands MNK's role by allowing it to take less damage. /WHM expands SMN's role by allowing them to use their MP apart from Avatars with HP and status cures. Whether that is your GIVEN role is situational, but even when a MNK/NIN tanks, its value is found in its damage (and assload of haste gear. :x)

[Sekkite]

Wrong, it does not enhance the main role, it allows the MNK to mitigate damage. It does not help to create more damage, which is MNK's main role. /NIN expands MNK's role by allowing it to take less damage. /WHM expands SMN's role by allowing them to use their MP apart from Avatars with HP and status cures. Whether that is your GIVEN role is situational, but even when a MNK/NIN tanks, its value is found in its damage (and assload of haste gear. )

Living longer lets a MNK do more damage. Survivability does play a part in doing damage. If you're dead, you're doing jack shit.

And as for /WHM letting a SMN use their MP apart from what they use with their avatars, that is a case of the main job enhancing the subjob, and not vice versa. The vast amount of mp available to a summoner lets them use lotsa low level cures.

[Delekii]

How the fuck is that different from MNK/NIN?

NIN sub on MNK lets the MNK deal the damage safer then a WAR sub. It is a different enhancement then what a WAR sub gives (defensive instead of offensive), but it enhances the job's main role nonetheless. Hell, a WHM sub enhances a role that a MNK has, with giving a little extra boost to Chi Blast.

As I said before though, there is no subjob that enhances aspects of SMN. Subjobs only allow for additional roles for them.

/COR has access to puppet roll and beast roll, if you want to get technical.

[Nirokun!]

Wrong, it does not enhance the main role, it allows the MNK to mitigate damage. It does not help to create more damage, which is MNK's main role. /NIN expands MNK's role by allowing it to take less damage. /WHM expands SMN's role by allowing them to use their MP apart from Avatars with HP and status cures. Whether that is your GIVEN role is situational, but even when a MNK/NIN tanks, its value is found in its damage (and assload of haste gear. )

You cant do damage if you're dead.

/whm expands smn's mp bar, sure, expands the usage of that mp bar, sure. it doesnt help a summoner be a better summoner, because /whm doesnt enhance any aspect of summoning outside of additional mp, but then again, /blm gives more.

[Dreampainter]

I'd think the bigger difference between WAR/NIN and SMN/WHM is that for WAR/NIN, NIN augments a warrior's main job. It enhances what the job is already good at; dual wield letting warrior deal damage better and utsusemi to allow the warrior to deal that damage safely. However, for SMN/WHM, WHM is no way augments the SMN part of the job/subjob combo. It adds a new role to the SMN to fulfill whenever he/she is unable to do anything with the avatar due to blood pact cooldown, but in no way does it enhance the use of Blood Pacts, reduce the cooldown of Blood Pacts, or strengthen the avatar in any way.

That is the biggest problem I see in summoner. They have no sub job that enhances their main role.

I'm so glad someone gets this. Either way, it doesn't matter that people don't want summoners to get updates. They're getting them no matter what anyone says because SE doesn't stop adjusting jobs until they fit the concept and vision they had for the job. They've never been happy with summoner and will continue to add avatars and find ways to encourage smn use.

[Sekkite]

How the fuck is that different from MNK/NIN?

NIN sub on MNK lets the MNK deal the damage safer then a WAR sub. It is a different enhancement then what a WAR sub gives (defensive instead of offensive), but it enhances the job's main role nonetheless. Hell, a WHM sub enhances a role that a MNK has, with giving a little extra boost to Chi Blast.

As I said before though, there is no subjob that enhances aspects of SMN. Subjobs only allow for additional roles for them.

/COR has access to puppet roll and beast roll, if you want to get technical.

Ehh....yeah, you are right on that count. The boost is so miniscule though that it doesn't make up for what you loose if you don't sub /WHM. I was originally thinking more along the lines of a more active boost, like job traits or JA's that make a noticeable difference. Wishful thinking though.

[Ryko]

I'd think the bigger difference between WAR/NIN and SMN/WHM is that for WAR/NIN, NIN augments a warrior's main job. It enhances what the job is already good at; dual wield letting warrior deal damage better and utsusemi to allow the warrior to deal that damage safely. However, for SMN/WHM, WHM is no way augments the SMN part of the job/subjob combo. It adds a new role to the SMN to fulfill whenever he/she is unable to do anything with the avatar due to blood pact cooldown, but in no way does it enhance the use of Blood Pacts, reduce the cooldown of Blood Pacts, or strengthen the avatar in any way.

That is the biggest problem I see in summoner. They have no sub job that enhances their main role.

I'm so glad someone gets this. Either way, it doesn't matter that people don't want summoners to get updates. They're getting them no matter what anyone says because SE doesn't stop adjusting jobs until they fit the concept and vision they had for the job. They've never been happy with summoner and will continue to add avatars and find ways to encourage smn use.

Ninjasayswhat?

[Nirokun!]

How the fuck is that different from MNK/NIN?

NIN sub on MNK lets the MNK deal the damage safer then a WAR sub. It is a different enhancement then what a WAR sub gives (defensive instead of offensive), but it enhances the job's main role nonetheless. Hell, a WHM sub enhances a role that a MNK has, with giving a little extra boost to Chi Blast.

As I said before though, there is no subjob that enhances aspects of SMN. Subjobs only allow for additional roles for them.

/COR has access to puppet roll and beast roll, if you want to get technical.

orry

time to level cor (and make another smn buddy level cor, so we can always have both buffs)

[Dreampainter]

ninja was a small exception that they ended up accepting. It was more covering thier ass than anything because by just allowing the playerbase to run its course with ninja, the added a new tank to the game without ever planning it.

[Ryko]

ninja was a small exception that they ended up accepting. It was more covering thier ass than anything because by just allowing the playerbase to run its course with ninja, the added a new tank to the game without ever planning it.

It's not a "small exception", it's a flat out contradiction to your blanket statement.

[evilpaul]

ninja was a small exception that they ended up accepting. It was more covering thier ass than anything because by just allowing the playerbase to run its course with ninja, the added a new tank to the game without ever planning it.

It's not a "small exception", it's a flat out contradiction to your blanket statement.

And it's also irrelevant.

[Ryko]

ninja was a small exception that they ended up accepting. It was more covering thier ass than anything because by just allowing the playerbase to run its course with ninja, the added a new tank to the game without ever planning it.

It's not a "small exception", it's a flat out contradiction to your blanket statement.

And it's also irrelevant.

A direct response is irrelevant to the thing it's responding to how, exactly?

"2 + 2 is 5"
"uh, no, it's 4"
"Well that has nothing to do with it"

Don't use big words when you don't know how to.

[LD]

Living longer lets a MNK do more damage. Survivability does play a part in doing damage. If you're dead, you're doing jack shit.

Of course it plays a part, we wouldn't be using it if we didn't understand that, but it's not enhancing shit. It's a strictly utilitarian spell used for the purpose of staying alive/giving the healer an easier time, not for increasing our damage. Compared even to /THF, it lacks in damage. Would you say WHM/NIN makes them heal better? Would you say BLM/NIN makes them nuke better? It simply creates another buffer beyond the tank's hate and the healer's cures.

Staying alive? It could be argued the only reason we're discouraged from subbing the optimal damage sub, /WAR, is because it creates more damage and hate than most tanks can handle (I think I'd win that argument too. :x) So how, exactly, is /NIN enhancing our damage, our main role, when it immediately gimps the ever-loving shit out of us? The fact that we're still strong when using /NIN is not a testament to how useful it is as much as it's a testament to how powerful we are.

WAR/NIN is vastly different for one reason and one reason only: Dual Wield.