Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[evilpaul]

Tythera, the interesting thing about Fenrir's Lunar Roar dispel is that it's impractical to use in nearly all situations because it takes a long time to summon Fenrir, wait for him to become un-stunned after summoning, run in semi-circles to the target, and use the BP, and then if it doesn't miss (the SMN magic skill update helped a lot with this) it doesn't even tell you what it dispelled anyway. Chances are whatever you dispelled probably has 100% TP by then again anyway.

There's several other BPs that don't say what happened when they work as well.

PLD/WHM mainhealing- no haste, weaker hmp gear
BLM/WHM mainhealing- no haste, no inherent autorefresh
BLU/WHM mainhealing- no haste (other than self), weaker hmp
DRK/WHM mainhealing- no haste, no autorefresh, weaker hmp gear

And none have as large an MP pool as SMN/WHM. blm has conserve mp and more clear mind? and blu/blm/drk have some sort of aspir, but that's about it. Haste is more important.

we're talking about subjobs not mainjobs, /whm can't haste, he's clearly showing an example of how any job can /whm and do practically the exact same thing doing so.

Pretty much. There's also JSE or All Jobs gear for most of the other jobs eliminates most of the shortcomings and/or provides a small boost that SMN doesn't get (excluding Hastega).

PLD/WHM has Cure IV, Flash for damage mitigation, an addional tick of Refresh from the Parade Gorget, and 5% more Cure potency from Hospitaler Earring.
BLM/WHM has Stun to mitigate some damage, Sleep to control adds, Aspir, several Add Refresh body pieces.
BLU/WHM has several Stuns and Flash to mitigate damage, Stoneskinga like SMN, Magic Fruit (effectively a Cure IV), Healing Breeze (dirt cheap and as strong as Curaga II), strong debuffs, and Conserve MP Clear Mind IV from setting spells.
DRK/WHM has Stun to mitigate some damage, Parade Gorget (Refresh in a slot SMN doesn't get mostly negating the advantage of the level 25 JT), several (expensive) and Add: Refresh body pieces.

Most of those spells are shorter casting times than the summoning magic, so even with less hMP from lower Clear Mind traits (excluding BLM) there would probably be another tick of /healing time to help make up the difference.

Seeing as most every other job with an MP pool can do what SMN/WHM can do, maybe some tweak in the support department might not be gamebreaking? Most MP-less jobs could probably /WHM and have enough MP to replace a SMN/WHM (if they are Tarutaru?) in EXP.

[Beckwin]

...and still none of them can haste party members.

[Vail]

BLU/WHM has several Stuns and Flash to mitigate damage, Stoneskinga like SMN, Magic Fruit (effectively a Cure IV), Healing Breeze (dirt cheap and as strong as Curaga II), strong debuffs, and Conserve MP Clear Mind IV from setting spells.

the answer is simple, make blu into a heal/support bitch

so what was the question?

jobs have niches they fit into, smn doesn't fit into exp, get over it: I leveled the job and can stomach.
Instead of complaining about another job being so much better: go level that job. There is no excuse except some weak midded attactment to a weak job (often by a weak person)

merits don't have to be earned by that job to spend them, if you want smn merits you can always get them on another job (and honestly should be earning them on another job if you want them at a great pace)

so then the only reason a smn should be in a party at 75 is to get buffer: how often do you die on smn? honestly killing a few lesser colibri solo each day should cover your exp losses, unless you're doing something very very wrong on your smn.

[evilpaul]

Is there some underlying reason I'm missing why pet jobs shouldn't fit into EXP?

[Vail]

pretty sure drg get (and more often accually make) thier own parties, they are a weaker job, but not completely unable to do thier task that thier party gives them.

SMN is given the task by thier fellow party members to be a healer, don't bitch about sucking at DDing when you've invited to be a healer.

BST doesn't do to bad in exp either, they do what is expected, melee (under most other melees) but thier pet helps to bring in some bonus damage. (PUP similiar)

biggest reason bst pup and drg fall behind in damage is often WS(drg), WS and equip(pup), or not a single trait/ability for damage dealing (bst)

smn has MP the buff (hastega) and MP recoverying/subtaining traits to fill it's given role as a healer-support
----

nin is a tank job because players made it that way
smn is a healer job because players made it that way
rdm is not a melee job because players have tried to not to be as retarded (some still try)

welcome to a world where things aren't always the way we want them (art imitates life)

[BRP]

nin is a tank job because players made it that way
smn is a healer job because players made it that way

Except a great deal of SMN don't want to be healers, on the other hand, NIN embraced their tanking methods. Another point is that NIN make great tanks, while SMN are basically watered down WHM with bigger MP pools.

welcome to a world where things aren't always the way we want them (art imitates life)

Oh, I'm sure those 2-hand weapon users are really emo right now. SE changes things, "too bad" doesn't work I'm afraid. I can only hope that SMN(and any other job) get additions that actually help the job instead of being a new toy that loses it's luster after a short time.

[Lulu]

summoners are so boring :3

you want to hear a complaint? My main job is drk. I don't play it ever. I have merited more on thf than on drk and in endgame events my ls would rather have my Dragoon than my multihit drk (Because I'm the only drg with angon the other drg refuses to merit it so I'm boned there.) my drg gets very slow shitty solo xp buffer because I wouldnt burden a pty with it and I dont much like playing it since its so weak in comparison to most jobs, - my drg is pretty well equipped btw.

most of the time I'm blm and I hate that job, blm needs nothing, if they could nuke more they'd die and I can very easily solo-duo my buffer on that.

nothing, even this 2 Handed buff will make drk and drg better because of utsusemi - /nin does nothing for those jobs unless youre somehow a ridill drk and if you have a ridill chances are you have war leveled.

if you made it so summoners could let drk/wars really rip it up like was intended I would love it. damage mitigation is much more popular than actual damage as far as I can see - drks can do a holy shitload of damage with their own private PL
as it is... back to my lolthf merit parties!

[FinalJustice]

I honestly don't see how the people arguing that smn should NOT be changed have any real argument.

Summoner IS a watered down whm, and in fact its /WHM gets more use then its actual job.

Most people who argue against smn being changed are usually people who have never touched the job, sit on the sidelines, and tell everyone else what their jobs should be. I don't give a rats ass about Hateless dmg on some HNM. What the hell do you expect smns to do from 1-75? There are plenty of things wrong with SMN, it's one of the most broken jobs in the game, that doesn't really get to be its name sake.

From bad avatar acc, bad avatar melee dmg, too weak buffs, none useful debuffs, stupid high perp cost just to keep them out, terrible avatar magic dmg that doesn't scale as you lvl, making astral flow useless at high lvls, except for just having a free avatar for 3 mins. There's more to this game then just throwing a smn at a hnm ppl are afraid to melee because of annoying TP moves.

SE has gone on the record saying they don't like that smns simply summon avatars, use a BP, and then dismiss then just cure. They said they want to change that. IN a JP interview they said they plan to re-evaluate the horrid low dmg of lvl 75 BPs, which goes back to the smns magic dmg being crappy to begin with. I can only hope they come through. Not forcing smns to choose between support, or attack every 1 min was a great start.

SMN needs fixing, if hateless dmg is something i have to give up to be able to finally PLAY SMN instead of a sub par /WHM i'd give it up in a heartbeat.

[DrObvious]

nin is a tank job because players made it that way
smn is a healer job because players made it that way

Except a great deal of SMN don't want to be healers, on the other hand, NIN embraced their tanking methods.

Do you really expect se to completely revolutionize the job at this point? Play another job if you're so unhappy with it. Even if se does everything you ask of them and radically strengthens bp wards you're still going to be subbing whm. If the core of the problem is you don't want to sub whm, there is no cure.

I don't know how it would ever be justifiable to have smners let their avatars melee. Just what we need, another job filling the same melee damage role that 10 other jobs have, pumping hnms full of tp.

[FinalJustice]

I don't know how it would ever be justifiable to have smners let their avatars melee. Just what we need, another job filling the same melee damage role that 10 other jobs have, pumping hnms full of tp.

The reason it's not justifiable is because it flat out stinks. There is NO benefit for leaving out an avatar at this time. Summon and release, is the way to go.

[Sasarai]

I don't know what SMN want or expect, do they really think more buffs to their avatar's damage capabilities will change a thing? It won't.

SMN is defined by /WHM because FFXI requires more jobs that can heal, thats the bottom line. Thats not going to change, so either play SMN and live with it, or play something else.

[FinalJustice]

To argue that it's that way because ffxi requires more healers isnt that well thought out. The reason Smn is a /whm is because its main job is weak. And it cures with /whm to have some sort of usefulness.

And to argue that no one should argue for changes to the jobs they love, when they have shortcomings is also not well thought out.

[Elcura]

It does not enhance damage, it allows you to survive to do damage. You can call this semantics all you want, but if your purpose, your role is to do as much damage as possible, Utsusemi will not help you do that. It just allows you to better manage the damage you WILL do.

I am not denying the usefulness of Utsusemi. I am denying that is helps damage, because it does not. It only keeps a you alive. That's like saying HP+ helps damage. It may not be as efficient, but it's the same concept.

Maybe I'm missing something here but when a WAR subs NIN how does it not increase damage? They DO get dual wield you know, along with making Suppa more useful and being able to offhand a joy/ridill/axe helps a lot with damage/tp. Compare that to MNK who get nothing offensively from subbing NIN.

[FinalJustice]

Why would monks "love" to have the problems a smn has?

[Kaslo]

PLD/WHM mainhealing- no haste, weaker hmp gear
BLM/WHM mainhealing- no haste, no inherent autorefresh
BLU/WHM mainhealing- no haste (other than self), weaker hmp
DRK/WHM mainhealing- no haste, no autorefresh, weaker hmp gear

And none have as large an MP pool as SMN/WHM. blm has conserve mp and more clear mind? and blu/blm/drk have some sort of aspir, but that's about it. Haste is more important.

we're talking about subjobs not mainjobs, /whm can't haste, he's clearly showing an example of how any job can /whm and do practically the exact same thing doing so.

He asked the difference between those mainhealing and a SMN mainhealing, and those are the differences. Not being able to haste + smaller MP pools + less HMP gear + less clear mind (minus BLM) + some lacking autorefresh.

Not that it matters but my BLU can haste others >.> but only once every 20 min ;p

Also my MP pool isn't too much different than a SMN if I wear the gear for it, It's like a Galka or Elvann SMN.

But really if you want a shitty healer BLU > SMN really just for magic fruit.

[FinalJustice]

So i have to lvl mnk to 75 to find that they would "love" to be defined by their subs?

You must be referring to them kicking so much ass they become mp sinks, and have to hold themselves back to not drain mp or die.

[Max™]

So i have to lvl mnk to 75 to find that they would "love" to be defined by their subs?

You must be referring to them kicking so much ass they become mp sinks, and have to sub Ninja, losing Double Attack and Berserk, to not drain mp or die.

[Delekii]

But really if you want a shitty healer BLU > SMN really just for magic fruit, conserve MP, clear mind 4, and auto refresh at the same time, worthwhile debuffs and buffs that don't take forever to cast, and more

Personally I feel that due to the overwhelming capability of BLU to perform as a DD, the healing aspect of the job is heavily under-estimated.. if only they had made refuelling fucking party targetable.

[FinalJustice]

But really if you want a shitty healer BLU > SMN really just for magic fruit, conserve MP, clear mind 4, and auto refresh at the same time, worthwhile debuffs and buffs that don't take forever to cast, and more

Personally I feel that due to the overwhelming capability of BLU to perform as a DD, the healing aspect of the job is heavily under-estimated.. if only they had made refuelling fucking party targetable.

I tend to agree. Blu could certainly use equipment and give it a comparative mp pool to a smn if they wanted. Long time ago i main healed on my blu because my LS begged me to do it, since not a single healer was around, and we all wanted merits. Just by equiping the right spells, and just throwing on random equipment from my mog house I broke about 1100 mp or so. So imagine what i could have gotten if I actually gear for a main healing blu all the time. Blu isnt forced into that roll for obvious reason,s even though it CAN perform them.

[Reapz]

Still no more news on update and I was hoping for version update on wednesday, guess its going to be next week after all