Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Sasarai]

To argue that it's that way because ffxi requires more healers isnt that well thought out. The reason Smn is a /whm is because its main job is weak. And it cures with /whm to have some sort of usefulness.

And to argue that no one should argue for changes to the jobs they love, when they have shortcomings is also not well thought out.

Sorry, was this a counter-arguement? I can't tell.

If FFXI didn't require more healers, then there would be no need for SMN to /WHM and heal. Would there?

The ability to cure /well/ is rare enough, especially in comparison to the vast amount of jobs that can DD. Why would FFXI want to potentially lose a job classified as a healing class, only to gain yet another DD? The community wouldn't accept it and you would end up /WHM main healing anyway, unless they suddenly make SMN do more damage than say...Blue Mage (ie, not going to happen).

[Vail]

SMN needs fixing, if hateless dmg is something i have to give up to be able to finally PLAY SMN instead of a sub par /WHM i'd give it up in a heartbeat.

that is the part where you are completely narrow minded. You're so fixated on a "job" a look a 3 letter word, that you'd rather limit yourself then find a job that expresses the strengths you truely want.

SE's main driving force for making a job better isn't people crying, it's how many people aren't playing that job anymore.
SE doesn't want there to be alot of SMN, they want it to be this rare special case job, and guess what, it's just that.


My first job was whm, I saw how powerful refresh and dispel was, and how amazing convert is, and looking at what whm had I felt like whm should have something better. But instead of dwelling on it and being a emo whm, I leveled up rdm. I have all the things I was so jealous of. I have nothing to complain about now.

I leveled NIN, loved it as a DD, good fast paced dot, the WS are lackluster (over-all) yeah you get some nice peaks every once in awhile, but the WS average isn't too hot.
-So I leveled up thf, pretty darn good on dot (maybe not as good as nin) but I get to drop some pretty high end WS damage compare to my NIN could ever do, and I really really enjoy it.

The point is: Pick a job that has the strengths you want, not pick the strengths you want a job to have.

(it's like people who get married and try to change the other person, it'll never work the way you want it to anyways. Find someone that has what you want to begin with and go from there)

[spooky]

Still no more news on update and I was hoping for version update on wednesday, guess its going to be next week after all :(

It IS next week! Where's the announcement damn it. ; ;
/sandyvag

[FinalJustice]

Counter argument? No.. because the original comment wasn't good to begin with. Like I said, it's not well thought out. Smns are a LAST RESORT healer when you can't get something else. And Explain to me WHY boosting avatar power would make smn take a DD spot away from some one else?

that is the part where you are completely narrow minded. You're so fixated on a "job" a look a 3 letter word, that you'd rather limit yourself then find a job that expresses the strengths you truely want.

Dude what the hell are you talking about? I have 5 lvl 75 jobs...soon to be 6

Edit: and how am i limiting myself by wanting all jobs that have shortcomings to be addressed that way everyone is happy? You're the one who is narrow minded if you think SMN is flawless, and great in one aspect of the game as being reason enough to not touch it. It took them 4 years to address the shortcomings of 1 BP every 45-60 secs...

[Jeryhn]

Summoner is mostly fine, but of course, there are still some glaring issues with it.

Most of the Ward Bloodpacts have horribly short natural durations, and effect ranges, and require the summoner to be put into potential danger just to make sure all your melees get the desired effect. We have no useful piercing Bloodpacts. Magical accuracy as a rule tends to be horribly low for a summoned avatar. Most avatars tend to be quickly neutered by effects such as amnesia, petrify or sleep. All our avatars are also basically carbon-copies of each other, with the same total HP, stats and attributes (with the exception of Carbuncle, who is weaker than the others), so Ifrit doesn't have higher attack power, and Ramuh doesn't have higher magical power - the only difference between each avatar is their elemental base, and their Bloodpact list. Even though Bloodpacts consume summoner MP, there are no traits to give you a roll to help mitigate the MP cost, like Conserve MP, and we have no self-abilities to help recharge MP even though our MP consumption is potentially the highest out of all job classes (MP Chakra please). Because of the limitations of our Ward Bloodpacts, a summoner can't fill a full support-role either, mostly because we can't help other jobs regenerate MP, when it could be as simple as transferring our MP to them with a 3-to-5-minute JA. And of course, between Bloodpacts, avatars are largely useless, as their attack power is exceptionally low, their delay is high, and they have no traits such as Double Attack or Counter or Store TP to make extended melee worth the perpetuation cost, or even worth the TP gain to try and enhance magical Bloodpacts. We still don't even have access to all our Bloodpacts (Diabolos' Cacodemonia, and the extra one that Fenrir has that was never named, but was speculated to be a Refreshga Bloodpact due to its animation).

Honestly, I really don't mind subbing WHM and being a healer. However, oftentimes, we are placed into this role because our main job just isn't strong or fast enough for today's fast-paced environments.

The summoning skill change helped out summoners a lot, but the thing is... the summoning skill only effects Bloodpacts, and only in the same way. On Rage Bloodpacts, it'll increase accuracy, and on Wards, the duration is extended. Great chages, to be sure, but I'd have liked to see a little more variety included in the system.

For example, why do I need more accuracy on Spinning Dive, or Mountain Buster? Couldn't the summoning skill mod have been changed on these two Bloodpacts to enhance attack rather than accuracy, seeing as they are already naturally accurate Bloodpacts? How about Earthen Ward? It lasts 15 minutes already, so it doesn't get any increase from summoning skill at all. Would it have been too much to get +1 damage absorption per point of summoning skill exceeding the cap (Hint: It still wouldn't be enough to reach the 350 damage absorption cap on white magic Stoneskin.)? Perhaps Frost Armor/Lightning Armor/Rolling Thunder could have been improved? And the Wards that already have 3 minute durations?

I suppose the upside to summoning skill only effecting Bloodpact accuracy is the fact that a summoner could effectively merit 8 upgrades in summoning skill, and then subsequently remove their Accuracy merits in exchange for Physical and Magical Attack to get the most out of their Bloodpacts (this is my own personal build).

Personally, I'm looking forward to another avatar, because I'm looking forward to having more options available to me as a summoner, not necessarily more power. If I were to speculate which avatar summoners would most likely get out of ToAU, I'd say it'd be Alexander, if only for the simple fact that he's not "bound" to another main character in the story, and is known for choosing the "strongest" to ally with (For reasons why I don't think it would be Odin, think Phoenix:Selh'teus::Odin:Luzaf.)

[FinalJustice]

I just don't see how any of the smn changes smns are requesting are so unreasonable.. no one is asking to out nuke blms and out dmg melees..

[Priran]

They're not unreasonable, but SMN is one of the most frequently updated jobs, while there are jobs who are never updated, and jobs that don't even have the endgame usefulness SMN has to go with their EXP party mediocrity.

[Ryko]

I just don't see how any of the smn changes smns are requesting are so unreasonable.. no one is asking to out nuke blms and out dmg melees..

Then you're being shortsighted. This boils down to summoners not wanting to cure, that's pretty much the bottom line. They don't enjoy the fact that their only worthwhile subjob doesn't mean they can summon something pretty, have it go engage something, then afk in the head for a minute until they can use another BP. It requires them to actually pay a little bit of attention then to compound it they only really have cure 3 and na spells at best. Of course they wouldn't ask to outdamage those other jobs, because then no one would even take them seriously.

"Well some smns don't like having to cure all the time."
"And some wars don't like having to sub nin all the time."

Doesn't matter, most of us have come to accept the restrictions placed on our job, some continue to be bitter because they want to be some obscure pet job and being good at something will never be enough for them.

[Cadena]

WAR is still WAR, and does WARish things with /NIN. /NIN gives it shadows and dual wield2, nothing else.

Not even remotely a valid contention to make, /NIN pretty much redefines what a WAR is capable of doing efficiently or spectacularly. A WAR voking a mob anywhere in an end-game fashion will get 3 second stomped and left nursing a reraise item to be of any use in a fashion other than being another dumb MP sponge feeding a mob TP. A WAR/NIN is not only going to survive longer, but output more damage because of it. It'd be similar to me saying "SMN is still SMN, and does SMNish things with /WHM (support). /WHM gives it status removal and faster cures, but it doesn't matter because you'd be support anyway." You're in an accomplished end-game shell and from what I can see fairly competent, I don't even have to explain why something a simple as 2 spells pretty much revamps both WAR and PLD. You don't see the equivalency in a WAR's first job ability being pretty much useless unless they sub ninja?

It redefines what a WAR is capable of doing.
It redefines what a WAR is doing.
WAR is doing.

The WAR is still doing WAR~ish things, a smn, with /whm, is doing WHM things, not summoner things. A summoner (currently) acts through their pet, and besides added mp, the whitemage subjob does nothing that assists a summoner's activity through their pet.

Subbing whitemage to summoner doesnt improve what the summoner is doing (hi, pet job) outside of giving the summoner more mp with which to summon more avatars. comparable to /nin's shadows and dual wield, summoner gets blink and stoneskin, and a fatter mp bar. But you and i both know that smn/whm is expected to heal (often mainheal) if invited to events that arent HNM.

/NIN grants utsusemi shadows, /WHM grants blink shadows
/NIN grants more efficient damage through Dual Wield II, /WHM grants more mp with which to summon, perpetuate, and BP.

You dont play your subjob on war/nin, but you do play your subjob on smn/whm.

What smn want is to be able to play their summoner (sure, still sub whitemage), but to do more with their mainjob abilities (if the need arises to grant more, so be it) and be more useful outside of a few HNM.

I guess I should stop using subjobs period on BRD since then none of them enhance my songs or whatever BRDs do.

[Lordwafik]

You dont play your subjob on war/nin, but you do play your subjob on smn/whm.

That's so retarded, since when don't wars tank? HNM or Exp / meriting, they always rip hate and end up tanking, they play their sub job when they're /nin.

I'd understand if you meant war/thf, but war/nin?

[Amele]

there are no traits to give you a roll to help mitigate the MP cost, like Conserve MP, and we have no self-abilities to help recharge MP even though our MP consumption is potentially the highest out of all job classes (MP Chakra please).

did you forget about auto-refresh?

(now I'm not saying that whitemage is as bad off as summoner, you guys have got my sympathy seriously) but if you're looking for the one mp-using job with no main job MP-endurance ability, it's whitemage, not summoner. (even -dark knight- has better mp-endurance ability on main job.)

this is really the one thing holding whitemage back from being on equal footing with rdm in merit (bard doesn't need refresh from the rdm, whm can haste, whm can cure better, and whm can enfeeble "well enough" with good gear.) although this doesn't necessarily need to be fixed.

[BRP]

DAMN IT! Still no news update. I think I'm just about sick of waiting.

And I think I'm also bored with this SMN debate, too much exaggeration and repetition.

[Indalecia]

Perhaps Frost Armor/Lightning Armor/Rolling Thunder could have been improved? And the Wards that already have 3 minute durations?

They should be based on my smn skill and not the goddamned enhancing skill of the person who receives the effect.

[FinalJustice]

They're not unreasonable, but SMN is one of the most frequently updated jobs, while there are jobs who are never updated, and jobs that don't even have the endgame usefulness SMN has to go with their EXP party mediocrity.

hmm im not sure about one of the most frequent. Besides like a new avatar every other year, what other updates have other jobs not gotten either at about the same time?

Then you're being shortsighted

I'm afraid you're the one being shortsighted here. Most smns i know as well as I have no problem restoring HP of party members. Had the majority of avatar healing been done with an actual avatar we wouldn't have been here having this silly discussion. The problem ppl have is that of all the BPs, majority of them suck balls. I think Jeryhn's post outlines the biggest problems for the job. being able to "summoning something pretty and going afk" has nothing to do with it. I'm not narrow minded or shortsighted, because I can SEE the reason /WHM is relied on in the first place. I have plenty of jobs that can cure, so curing is not my problem. If you can sit here and say Jeryhn comments are wrong, then you're the shortsighted one.

[Amele]

Perhaps Frost Armor/Lightning Armor/Rolling Thunder could have been improved? And the Wards that already have 3 minute durations?

They should be based on my smn skill and not the goddamned enhancing skill of the person who receives the effect.

this might be a code limitation. depending on how the en-spell effects are calculated and how much of a tear-up that segment of code can handle.

[Toth]

Interestingly enough, last update, two weeks before the update (re: last week), there was also only one update (CoP Battlefield Adjustments) before the next update the following Tuesday (New Merc Rank!). So this is normal it seems. Expect two updates this week followed by one more next week and then the update the following day.

[Priran]

They're not unreasonable, but SMN is one of the most frequently updated jobs, while there are jobs who are never updated, and jobs that don't even have the endgame usefulness SMN has to go with their EXP party mediocrity.

hmm im not sure about one of the most frequent. Besides like a new avatar every other year, what other updates have other jobs not gotten either at about the same time?

Ward/Rage update, SC/MB update, Summoning skill update, Mini forks, lengthening of Astral Flow, and an improvement to your tier 2 merits; something I don't think any other jobs have gotten.

And "besides new avatars" is a shitty cop out, each avatar gives SMN more new shit than many jobs have seen since SMN was released.

[Reapz]

SMN is fine the way it is and already superior to many other jobs in many aspects of the game, bar merit/exp, end of discussion.

[epigram]

Of all jobs I can't believe that smn's would complain that much. It's the best off pet job. Not to mention that the job is highly complementary with corsair. Compare that to a job like bst which isn't really better than any job at anything, has a 2-hour that is useless in most sitations, is more expensive than most jobs, has the least useful meritable trait (beast healer), has been nerfed more often than it has been buffed, and has all of it's abilities accessible and useable by any job that subs it. Furthermore SE continues to tease the job with un-charmable (usually charmable non-NM mobs) in Salvage, Nyzul, and Halvung...

[FinalJustice]

They're not unreasonable, but SMN is one of the most frequently updated jobs, while there are jobs who are never updated, and jobs that don't even have the endgame usefulness SMN has to go with their EXP party mediocrity.

hmm im not sure about one of the most frequent. Besides like a new avatar every other year, what other updates have other jobs not gotten either at about the same time?

Ward/Rage update, SC/MB update, Summoning skill update, Mini forks, lengthening of Astral Flow, and an improvement to your tier 2 merits; something I don't think any other jobs have gotten.

And "besides new avatars" is a shitty cop out, each avatar gives SMN more new shit than many jobs have seen since SMN was released.

The reason i didn't mention the updates after ToAU were because just about every job (except bst?) under the sun also got updates and tier 2 merits at the same time. The reason the tier 2 smn merits got an additional update is because SE was attempting to fix what was broken, but increasing the dmg of them by giving a tp bonus. But how am I supposed to get TP? I would hardly call the mini forks an update to the job, now "that's" a cop out. New avatars give a more new shit eh? You seem to forget other jobs (mostly melee) get a slew of updates through gear. SMN is a mage job, and im sure other mage jobs can add up updates to about equal what fenrir and diabolos have brought to the table.

Of all jobs I can't believe that smn's would complain that much.

The reason why they complain, is because every time they chime in to ask for something to be addressed, you people rain on their parade telling them they don't need x y z turning it into an argument of who is more deserving of an update and who is not.