Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Admo]

SMN is fine the way it is and already superior to many other jobs in many aspects of the game, bar merit/exp, end of discussion.

Wyrms? I hardly call that "many".

It's true that SMNs have gotten a lot of things since its implementation (which I'm jealous about), however, they've never been wanted as a SMN all the way to 75 and even at 75, their use is very limited.

[Priran]

That's more than PUP, DRG, RNG, and BST can say.

[Kyreth]

Perhaps Frost Armor/Lightning Armor/Rolling Thunder could have been improved? And the Wards that already have 3 minute durations?

They should be based on my smn skill and not the goddamned enhancing skill of the person who receives the effect.

this might be a code limitation. depending on how the en-spell effects are calculated and how much of a tear-up that segment of code can handle.

If my Phalanx II works fine based off of my Enhancing skill and not the target's, they can bloody well get En-spell BP effects to work based off the Summoner's Summoning magic skill.

What I'd like to see is a "mode select" for Summoners, much like Samurai have. Give them a JA that ups avatar accuracy, attack, and reduced perpetuation cost with the drawback of increased BP timers- so if a SMN wants to have an avatar out and meleeing, it's doable...but you won't be tossing out Rage and Ward quickly at all.

[Not Kuno]

That's more than PUP, DRG, RNG, and BST can say.

We use rng in stuff like limbus/dyna/ein/etc etc. Same with drg sometimes. But smn's usage is super low despite what anyone says.

[Reapz]

Wyrms? I hardly call that "many".

It's true that SMNs have gotten a lot of things since its implementation (which I'm jealous about), however, they've never been wanted as a SMN all the way to 75 and even at 75, their use is very limited.

Wyrms, Khim, Cerb, Temperance, ENMs are just a few things I use my SMN for, as Priran said, more than you can say for other jobs.

[Amele]

Perhaps Frost Armor/Lightning Armor/Rolling Thunder could have been improved? And the Wards that already have 3 minute durations?

They should be based on my smn skill and not the goddamned enhancing skill of the person who receives the effect.

this might be a code limitation. depending on how the en-spell effects are calculated and how much of a tear-up that segment of code can handle.

If my Phalanx II works fine based off of my Enhancing skill and not the target's, they can bloody well get En-spell BP effects to work based off the Summoner's Summoning magic skill.

What I'd like to see is a "mode select" for Summoners, much like Samurai have. Give them a JA that ups avatar accuracy, attack, and reduced perpetuation cost with the drawback of increased BP timers- so if a SMN wants to have an avatar out and meleeing, it's doable...but you won't be tossing out Rage and Ward quickly at all.

phalanx 2 was implemented how many years after enspells?

yeah. don't assume the code is in a situation where it's reasonably changeable. especially something that's as mind-numbingly obvious as this (although it is SE so it's possible they're just lazy about it) and should've been done already.

[layoneil]

Wyrms, Khim, Cerb, Temperance, ENMs are just a few things I use my SMN for, as Priran said, more than you can say for other jobs.

# of events =/= time spent at events.

total your time for those fights per week and it won't match another job who does 2 runs each of dynamis/limbus or probably one really good merit session.

[Shuemue]

Wyrms, Khim, Cerb, Temperance, ENMs are just a few things I use my SMN for, as Priran said, more than you can say for other jobs.

# of events =/= time spent at events.

total your time for those fights per week and it won't match another job who does 2 runs each of dynamis/limbus or probably one really good merit session.

Good thing we're not limited to a single job, isn't it? Pretty much like the army having snipers, sappers, infantry, artillery and so on, right job for the right operation etc?

[Sasarai]

Regardless, SMN are far from the least used job at endgame. BST, PUP and to a lesser extent DRG should all be looking at getting a little something more for that before they think about buffing SMN (again).

That and, buffing SMN really doesn't do anything, they get a buff nearly each update and it simply doesn't make them any less desirable as a main healing class.

[BRP]

No one is saying BST or PUP or so on shouldn't be buffed, that's not an argument against SMN getting buffed.

And "Just switch jobs" is the same as saying "Job inbalance and brokens jobs are A-OK!". SE wants to fix jobs, so this goes nowhere, why even bring it up?

SMN has nice spike damage, now if only their ability to support was worth a damn and perhaps it wasn't such a hassle to deal with Summons.

The reason they stay as a healing job(or at least, can't reach the potential of a full-on support) is because none of these changes have not been enough. That's the entire point on why they should get more.

[Admo]

...before they think about buffing SMN (again).

Buffing doesn't always mean they are fixing it. SMN does get a lot of buffs, but the job is still widdled down to a heal tank from 1-74.

Wyrms? I hardly call that "many".

It's true that SMNs have gotten a lot of things since its implementation (which I'm jealous about), however, they've never been wanted as a SMN all the way to 75 and even at 75, their use is very limited.

Wyrms, Khim, Cerb, Temperance, ENMs are just a few things I use my SMN for, as Priran said, more than you can say for other jobs.

Wyrms: Vrta - yes (when not melee burned), Jorm - who does this anymore?, Tiamat - No, Ouryu - No, Bahamut - No.
Khim - Maybe, but how many times does Khim pop in a week? This is assuming you are getting the claim.
Cerb - RNG > SMN here.
Temperance - Eh? Last time I did Temperance, we had one and that was because that was the only job she had at 75 at the time. Temperance is very much doable without SMNs and if your strat is SMN burning, then you're taking way too long.
ENM - Unless you are talking about Corse, this hardly counts as a LS or end game event.

I'm not saying there are other jobs that really need fixing as well (even more than SMN), but they buff other jobs to "fix" them and does nothing a lot the time. SMN is good example... SE implements all these "buffs" to SMN that really doesn't fix the job. It still takes forever (more than 5 seconds is forever in this game) to pull up that avatar and do a BP. Putting rage and ward on two different timers really didn't do anything because I don't see SMNs do this very often outside using it just to use. And for the SMN skill making a difference: it was a change that needed to be done, but extending the BP buffs still isn't going to make them more desired because when SMNs are used, they are used for damage and not to buff. SMN magic skill affecting accuracy is a crock of sh!t as their accuracy still sucks as ever.

[Naygor]

Sometimes it takes me more than 5 seconds to cast a nuke on blm and it takes me 8 (yes the unumber before 9 and after 7) seconds to cast a song on brd when I'm expected to have 4 songs on at once?! Buffs plz.

[Reapz]

Wyrms: Vrta - yes (when not melee burned), Jorm - who does this anymore?, Tiamat - No, Ouryu - No, Bahamut - No.
Khim - Maybe, but how many times does Khim pop in a week? This is assuming you are getting the claim.
Cerb - RNG > SMN here.
Temperance - Eh? Last time I did Temperance, we had one and that was because that was the only job she had at 75 at the time. Temperance is very much doable without SMNs and if your strat is SMN burning, then you're taking way too long.
ENM - Unless you are talking about Corse, this hardly counts as a LS or end game event.

I was just saying things I use my SMN for, not specifically end game
Wyrms - Jorm & Tia I am SMN, not that Jorm is worth it or Tia can be claimed anymore lolol
Khim - SMN most of the time, claiming always an issue of course
Cerb - Same as Khim and I don't have RNG, mostly SAM/SMN damage for us and other random melee on it
Temperance - SMNs, RNGs and random melee most of the time, I should try BLU sometime
ENM - Just the two for me really lol, Uninvited Guests & Fire in the Sky, lots of jobs can do it better, easier and faster sure but this is still another thing some jobs can't do

[Sidanoir]

Sometimes it takes me more than 5 seconds to cast a nuke on blm and it takes me 8 (yes the unumber before 9 and after 7) seconds to cast a song on brd when I'm expected to have 4 songs on at once?! Buffs plz.

Minstrels Ring, Manteel, Yigit Gomlek, BRD/RDM with warlocks? LOL, loca earring

You can do better than 8 seconds >.>!

[Tomino]

as they introduced Diabolos for certain HNM, mainly kited fights
I hope they'll introduce Odin as a fast-action pet, useless vs great enemies but nice against T-VT spam. this would give me something to do in ToAU.

oh btw, I think what ruined meriting is using the same job to strenghten any other. beside being nonsense, it changed the whole meripos into endless sequences of 5 jobs. would love SE too fix that.

[Admo]

Sometimes it takes me more than 5 seconds to cast a nuke on blm and it takes me 8 (yes the unumber before 9 and after 7) seconds to cast a song on brd when I'm expected to have 4 songs on at once?! Buffs plz.

Out of all the things I said, you point out the 5 seconds. Does it take you 8 seconds to put on your instrument and another 8 seconds to play a song AND have to wait another 50-60 (depending on timer-) to play another? Same thing with BLMs with nuking...

Your logic is flawed.

[Carnusty]

Sometimes it takes me more than 5 seconds to cast a nuke on blm and it takes me 8 (yes the unumber before 9 and after 7) seconds to cast a song on brd when I'm expected to have 4 songs on at once?! Buffs plz.

Minstrels Ring, Manteel, Yigit Gomlek, BRD/RDM with warlocks? LOL, loca earring

You can do better than 8 seconds >.>!

The one time I saw someone BRD/RDM in my merit party I booted them. That's the worst SJ out of the "Useful" SJs bard uses >_>...

[FinalJustice]

That's more than PUP, DRG, RNG, and BST can say.

And i can agree with that. But instead of ppl always raining on someone parade telling them to go sit down, we should simply list ALL the fixes we want for each job that has something lacking. It's FAR more productive then arguing about what job shouldn't be fixed when 95% of that jobs base is asking for it. While the ppl who don't even lvl that job to experience the problems tell them to shut up, because that job is "ok" at the one thing, in the one aspect of the game that benefits their group somehow.

The reason I'm not talking about Pup and DRG, or even rng right now, is because the conversation what about smn, and what some ppl wanted addressed. Feel free to bring up any of those jobs you want. So many people play each job, we SHOULD be able to list concerns about any job without wet blankets whining about what jobs needs fixing first.

Edit: Again NO ONE is saying PUP, DRG, RNG, and BST shouldn't be fixed. But that is not a good enough reason to argue that SMN should not be.

[Admo]

The one time I saw someone BRD/RDM in my merit party I booted them. That's the worst SJ out of the "Useful" SJs bard uses >_>...

Yah, because they have all of, what, 3 (?) useful sub jobs. What's so wrong with /RDM in merit parties? It isn't like they are subbing BLM for warp or PLD to tank.

[Carnusty]

The one time I saw someone BRD/RDM in my merit party I booted them. That's the worst SJ out of the "Useful" SJs bard uses >_>...

Yah, because they have all of, what, 3 (?) useful sub jobs. What's so wrong with /RDM in merit parties?

lack of curaga, lack of -na spells, lack of damage mitigation (reliable damage mitigation, fuck stoneskin and blink).

/RDM blows for anything not BLM and solo, really -.-;

Also I'm really suprised no one here mentioned these

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/images/...%27s_spats.png

OHAY I SHORTENED YOUR CASTING TIMES