Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Admo]

So now we are comparing /RDM to /NIN? Yes, hands down, /NIN is the best for pulling in meripos, but /RDM isn't so terrible in comparison to a /WHM.

I was comparing /RDM to both /WHM and /NIN in my original statement. /RDM offers the least out of the choices BRD has between them all, thus it's useless and gimp, in my opinion.

"Terrible" or not, it's still a bad choice.

Kickable offense, though? You can't tell me you would pass up a BRD/RDM to wait for one to pop or even having a 2 BRD party.

[Jeryhn]

Problem is, the SMN here are complaining about their DD capabilities, not their support.

Summoners are concerned about their DD capabilities between Bloodpacts.

As far as Bloodpacts go, our Wards are the biggest problem.

[FinalJustice]

Point is, finding a WHM is fucking hard for parties, no matter how good SMN may become, it won't suddenly STOP being good at main healing which in the end is MORE USEFUL.

It's main healing is more valued BECAUSE its main job's issues. If its acc BP, attk BP, and enspell BPs were more powerful, who's to say they wouldn't be invited for other things?

[layoneil]

So now we are comparing /RDM to /NIN? Yes, hands down, /NIN is the best for pulling in meripos, but /RDM isn't so terrible in comparison to a /WHM.

it's terrible because you lose a bunch of spells and gain nearly nothing.

[Admo]

Point is, finding a WHM is fucking hard for parties, no matter how good SMN may become, it won't suddenly STOP being good at main healing which in the end is MORE USEFUL.

It's main healing is more valued BECAUSE its main job's issues. If its acc BP, attk BP, and enspell BPs were more powerful, who's to say they wouldn't be invited for other things?

Adding on to this...

Name one other job that plays their job as their subjob. Anyone?

[Carnusty]

Kickable offense, though? You can't tell me you would pass up a BRD/RDM to wait for one to pop or even having a 2 BRD party.

Yes, I would. Seeing as my first job to 75 was Bard, I'm really judgemental against them. I kicked a bard for not having an earth staff, as well as kicked one for not having more than cornette+1 for an instrument.

[SephYuyX]

I would like a BLM weapon that would just give +15% dmg to all spells. That would be nice.

[Reapz]

I would like a BLM weapon that would just give +15% dmg to all spells. That would be nice.

Needs to be white box and ok.

[Sasarai]

Point is, finding a WHM is fucking hard for parties, no matter how good SMN may become, it won't suddenly STOP being good at main healing which in the end is MORE USEFUL.

It's main healing is more valued BECAUSE its main job's issues. If its acc BP, attk BP, and enspell BPs were more powerful, who's to say they wouldn't be invited for other things?

But chances are they would be invited for healing anyway, as that is what the game needs. Another job that can DD that sits lfp for hours on end waiting til its just them and PUP to choose from is not.

[Naygor]

Point is, finding a WHM is fucking hard for parties, no matter how good SMN may become, it won't suddenly STOP being good at main healing which in the end is MORE USEFUL.

It's main healing is more valued BECAUSE its main job's issues. If its acc BP, attk BP, and enspell BPs were more powerful, who's to say they wouldn't be invited for other things?

Adding on to this...

Name one other job that plays their job as their subjob. Anyone?

In exp you're damn near worthless on nin without voke so I'm gonna have to go with nin. This also totally disregards any and all BPs being used. In endgame, owait, smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

[FinalJustice]

Problem is, the SMN here are complaining about their DD capabilities, not their support.

Summoners are concerned about their DD capabilities between Bloodpacts.

As far as Bloodpacts go, our Wards are the biggest problem.

I agree with this and also add, the magic based nukes are a big problem too. When I can crack out 3k dmg on a EP mob with lvl 70 predator Claw, but pop out a 400 dmg lvl 75 Wind blade, something is wrong.

[SephYuyX]

I would like a BLM weapon that would just give +15% dmg to all spells. That would be nice.

Needs to be white box and ok.

Fine fine, +10% for the NQ, +15% for the HQ.

[Reapz]

I wanted the LV75 merit BPs to be the equivalent to LV70 BPs but in magic form, but they completely screwed that up and I am sad

[BRP]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

[FinalJustice]

Point is, finding a WHM is fucking hard for parties, no matter how good SMN may become, it won't suddenly STOP being good at main healing which in the end is MORE USEFUL.

It's main healing is more valued BECAUSE its main job's issues. If its acc BP, attk BP, and enspell BPs were more powerful, who's to say they wouldn't be invited for other things?

But chances are they would be invited for healing anyway, as that is what the game needs. Another job that can DD that sits lfp for hours on end waiting til its just them and PUP to choose from is not.

You do not know that... you are simply guessing. And you seem to think that buffing smns other areas would somehow strike them all with explosive amnesia and forget how to cast a cure. Sit seeking for hours?? Smn ALREADy does that. Like I said, smn is but a LAST RESORT main healer. Smn would NEVER be a PURE DD even with the changes ppl are asking for. If you needed a real DD spot you still wouldnt pick a smn even with all the asked for changes.

[Sasarai]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

I was under the impression they used Hastega and other SMN buffs, can't say I've partied with a SMN in the grind that hasn't.

You do not know that... you are simply guessing. And you seem to think that buffing smns other areas would somehow strike them all with explosive amnesia and forget how to cast a cure. Sit seeking for hours?? Smn ALREADy does that. Like I said, smn is but a LAST RESORT main healer. Smn would NEVER be a PURE DD even with the changes ppl are asking for. If you needed a real DD spot you still wouldnt pick a smn even with all the asked for changes.

Exactly. So it would be pointless.

Being the Last Resort Main Healer > Being the Last Resort DD.

[Admo]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

I was under the impression they used Hastega and other SMN buffs, can't say I've partied with a SMN in the grind that hasn't.


[quote:29736]You do not know that... you are simply guessing. And you seem to think that buffing smns other areas would somehow strike them all with explosive amnesia and forget how to cast a cure. Sit seeking for hours?? Smn ALREADy does that. Like I said, smn is but a LAST RESORT main healer. Smn would NEVER be a PURE DD even with the changes ppl are asking for. If you needed a real DD spot you still wouldnt pick a smn even with all the asked for changes.

Exactly. So it would be pointless.

Being the Last Resort Main Healer > Being the Last Resort DD.[/quote:29736]
Hastega is very nice, agreed, but what else can they do in a minute's time? DD? No, it wastes too much MP that is needed for them to spam cure III. SMN has always been a DD class in every FF prior to this one, and should stay that way, but the way the job is set up now, SE blew it. SMN still needs to be fixed, IMHO.

[Sasarai]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

I was under the impression they used Hastega and other SMN buffs, can't say I've partied with a SMN in the grind that hasn't.


[quote:28313]You do not know that... you are simply guessing. And you seem to think that buffing smns other areas would somehow strike them all with explosive amnesia and forget how to cast a cure. Sit seeking for hours?? Smn ALREADy does that. Like I said, smn is but a LAST RESORT main healer. Smn would NEVER be a PURE DD even with the changes ppl are asking for. If you needed a real DD spot you still wouldnt pick a smn even with all the asked for changes.

Exactly. So it would be pointless.

Being the Last Resort Main Healer > Being the Last Resort DD.

Hastega is very nice, agreed, but what else can they do in a minute's time? DD? No, it wastes too much MP that is needed for them to spam cure III. SMN has always been a DD class in every FF prior to this one, and should stay that way, but the way the job is set up now, SE blew it.[/quote:28313]

Alot of Jobs were different in FF History, SMN is no exception.

[Naygor]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

It's pretty simple. A nin without a war sub can't voke and will take a hit to their dot without zerk from war sub. They're not worth inviting. A smn without a whm sub can't cure people, they're not worth inviting. The extent is irrelevant. The point is, without their sub they need to gtfo.

[FinalJustice]

Pfft Hastega wasn't even worth casting until the skill change was done.

And again, you keep making arguments no one is arguing. Name me one source that suggested that smn should have to compete with a DDs slot? You seem fixatedon someone saying SMN should be able to DD like top tier melee. AGAIN.. smn is main healer BECAUSE its main jobs ability to DD at lower lvls, and support the party are terrible, so the only option it can fall back on is cure 3 spamming.

Just because I can DD on my COR doesn't mean I'm competing with another DD when it comes to party invites. So why the hell would a SMN who had betyter DD capabilities pre 70 be any different? If anything like someone said, it would be more similar to a COR, or Brd. With Main healing as an OPTION, not the only choice.

Your arguments against the changes are weak.