Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Admo]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

It's pretty simple. A nin without a war sub can't voke and will take a hit to their dot without zerk from war sub. They're not worth inviting. A smn without a whm sub can't cure people, they're not worth inviting. The extent is irrelevant. The point is, without their sub they need to gtfo.

Thus SMNs are broke. NINs aren't forced to play their subjob in a merit party.

[Ryko]

And again, you keep making arguments no one is arguing. Name me one source that suggested that smn should have to compete with a DDs slot? You seem fixatedon someone saying SMN should be able to DD like top tier melee.

Because if such wasn't implied the you're gonna sit there LFG as another crappy DD as opposed to another crappy healer. Hint: The first has way way way way more alternatives.

Thus SMNs are broke. NINs aren't forced to play their subjob in a merit party.

A tanking nin/war is just as much playing their subjob as a tanking war/nin is as a smn/whm is. In the case of meriting you don't have one without the other, it's not so much playing the subjob but coming to accept that it works as a combination for a reason. But "voke, shadows, zerk, a crit WS". Technically if the nin were there to melee and only melee sure but you're not inviting a nin that's gonna be like "I wanna sub drg, fuckitall".

[Naygor]

smns don't play their subjob primarily in endgame.

Not everything in the end-game are large drawn outfights against monsters who do mean things with TP where SMN shines. In Assault-like play, not counting a very few exceptions, they play their subjob.

And let's try to settle this one last time: NIN/WAR is still NIN because they cast shadows, dual wield for quick damage and TP, and depending on the situation they may even cast a few ninjetsu. A SMN/WHM can be said to benefit from Clear Mind... that's it.

It's pretty simple. A nin without a war sub can't voke and will take a hit to their dot without zerk from war sub. They're not worth inviting. A smn without a whm sub can't cure people, they're not worth inviting. The extent is irrelevant. The point is, without their sub they need to gtfo.

Thus SMNs are broke. NINs aren't forced to play their subjob in a merit party.

Uh, they kinda are. They're just crappy damage without /war.

[BRP]

Oh wow, you have no idea what's going on do you?

We are talking about how much their sub defines their roles not how effective they are without those subs.

NIN can still DD(with dual wield) and still cast ninjetsu. I said earlier that sub jobs effectively add roles to jobs, like /WHM does WHM or BRD and in this /WAR or /DRK and so on does to NIN. This does not change the fact a NIN is still a NIN and a SMN is mostly a /WHM.

[Jordache]

Most jobs could use a little tweak here and there. "The Pet Job Argument" is that SMN (and BST and PUP*) needs fundamental changes to it to bring it up to par with the rest of the jobs.

Yes the BPs timers were split, and that was a good thing. But prior, it was the equivalent of having provoke and berzerk on the same 1 minute timer. How much would a job voice itself if all their JAs were on the same 1 min timer? It was a necessary change that should have been done since the beginning. And smn magic skill was in the equivalent position of a blm where elemental magic skill means only how long elemental debuffs lasted or a WHM where healing magic skill = reraise duration. Another change that should have been there since the job's release.

And maybe a overhaul of the ward pacts could be done too. I mean when have you ever seen leviathan's slowga used? 1 min enthunder/shock spikes/ice spikes? 30 sec warcry effect? A total and utter waste of coding.

- Shortening avatar casting times by ~2-5sec. would help to greatly speed up the job.
- Giving smn a healing/enhancing magic skill wouldn't hurt either for when we /whm.
- Making TP not be such a friggen issue when using magical BPs (atm anything <300% is a waste of mp, and no one will waste the mp leaving the pet out for that long to get it)
- Up duration of all ward BP to a minimum of 5 min.
- The "out of range" curse being fixed would be a godsend. (one that can be easily remedied by having the pet not melee at the very edge of melee range. Make them crowd around the mob like player do)
- a JA that somehow either lowers perp costs, or restores mp; maybe at the sacrifice of a rage or ward BP. (Maybe make -perp JA eat a rage and a MP restore JA eat a ward)

These are the things that would help fix smn as a main job.

*DRG works fundamentally different then the commandable pet jobs and wasn't taken into account for this post.

[kuronosan]

What if they released Phoenix as an avatar and gave it Refresh/Regen/Reraise/Raise as BPs?

[Ryko]

We are talking about how much their sub defines their roles not how effective they are without those subs.

NIN can still DD(with dual wield) and still cast ninjetsu.

Just quit while you're behind. A WAR sub in exp does define a ninja, almost moreso than a NIN sub defines a WAR in exp. You're not inviting them to kurayami and swing their non-zerked katanas for piddly damage. /WAR is just as much a definition (actually much moreso) of why you invite a NIN to exp as their dual wield is, and since their function of utsusemi means jack and shit without the mob's attention...

shit, you got chocolate in my peanut butter.

[Reapz]

What if they released Phoenix as an avatar and gave it Refresh/Regen/Reraise/Raise as BPs?

I wanted exactly that but not gonna happen!

[Naygor]

Oh wow, you have no idea what's going on do you?

We are talking about how much their sub defines their roles not how effective they are without those subs.

NIN can still DD(with dual wield) and still cast ninjetsu. I said earlier that sub jobs effectively add roles to jobs, like /WHM does WHM or BRD and in this /WAR or /DRK and so on does to NIN. This does not change the fact a NIN is still a NIN and a SMN is mostly a /WHM.

Ok, nin is still a nin. It's just utter crap since no one really cares about crap dot and your ninjutsu. Smn is still a smn. It's just utter crap because it can't cure. Quite the difference. The end result is the same no matter how you want to phrase it: your main job won't cut it unless you sub <insert whatever job> for an exp/meripo.

[FinalJustice]

Because if such wasn't implied the you're gonna sit there LFG as another crappy DD as opposed to another crappy healer. Hint: The first has way way way way more alternatives.

And you are still under the impression that it would have to compete with DD if the changes were made...

[BRP]

NIN's WAR sub augments their DD ability and their tank ability, the key word is augment.

SMN can not cure without /WHM. It does not augment, but adds an entire new type of play for that job(Healing). This is actually fantastic, and this is why /WHM(and I guess you can consider /RDM) is beloved by mages. The problem is SMN, unlike any other mage job that comes to mind, does not rely on their own style of play a large enough amount.

You can say I'm focusing on small details, but please understand what I'm talking about. You can ignore it, but don't be wrong on purpose, that's no fun.

Also, that's not chocolate.

[Jkun]

your main job won't cut it unless you sub <insert whatever job> for an exp/meripo.

I can sub anything on my DRK and still do a mertric fuckton of damage, whichever sub I choose just makes the damage and DoT vary. Nobody ever has any problems with any sub I see fit to use.

I had a pretty good meripo yesterday with a NIN/DRK who kept hate pretty well, granted it wasn't on Colibri, obviously.

[Ryko]

Because if such wasn't implied the you're gonna sit there LFG as another crappy DD as opposed to another crappy healer. Hint: The first has way way way way more alternatives.

And you are still under the impression that it would have to compete with DD if the changes were made...

So you want the changes so you can... still heal people and still use a whm sub?

NIN's WAR sub augments their DD ability and their tank ability, the key word is augment.

No, it defines it. Before 75 you are not initiating hate without the initial spike of hate provoke provides and you're not keeping it up without the melee boosts zerk and double attack provide. (outside of that small time in crawler's nest where you can hemorrhage gil from your ears spamming the elemental wheel) Just give it up.

I can sub anything on my DRK and still do a mertric fuckton of damage, whichever sub I choose just makes the damage and DoT vary. Nobody ever has any problems with any sub I see fit to use.

I would think that's why he didn't use DRK as an example.

[Naygor]

NIN's WAR sub augments their DD ability and their tank ability, the key word is augment.

SMN can not cure without /WHM. It does not augment, but adds an entire new type of play for that job(Healing). This is actually fantastic, and this is why /WHM(and I guess you can consider /RDM) is beloved by mages. The problem is SMN, unlike any other mage job that comes to mind, does not rely on their own style of play a large enough amount.

You can say I'm focusing on small details, but please understand what I'm talking about. You can ignore it, but don't be wrong on purpose, that's no fun.

Also, that's not chocolate.

Ah, so even though they both need their subjob or else they're totally worthless, smn has it worse because nin can still do terrible damage and will somehow be able to pull hate without DA, zerk, or voke. Makes sense to me.

[FinalJustice]

So you want the changes so you can... still heal people and still use a whm sub?

If you don't get it, go back and read what people are saying until you do. I'm not repeating myself.

[BRP]

No, it defines it. Before 75 you are not initiating hate without the initial spike of hate provoke provides and you're not keeping it up without the melee boosts zerk and double attack provide. Just give it up.

No, it does not define it. Perhaps you are talking about something else(look at my previous response to Naygor). Berserk and Double Attack increases Melee Damage(something a NIN would be doing already). Provoke(and other potential hate grabbers) draws attention to them in order to use their natural utusemi. They are still "tanks", which is very evident in situations where the NIN is solo and is able to tank monsters fine and even not solo, but his/her teammate takes precautions to not steal hate.

You would be correct if NIN needed something like Defender in order to mitigate damage and uh.... hmmm... well... I can't think of a situation where NINs wouldn't be a DD in which WAR would make them one.

I find it a bit funny, maybe odd, that you are telling me to "give up" when you obviously don't know of what I speak of.

[Jordache]

nin can /rng and be like the NPC nins. No one does it b/c the game is all nin/war4EVR!!! Point is it *can* be done in a way that "augments" a nin's natural proficiency for RA. It doesn't mean that it is done.

A smn subbing anything gets nothing to support/enchance its natural abilities so it therefore creates a situation with /whm to heal , making it useful. A 37 WHM ~ 75 SMN 99.5% of the time and that is what this argument is about.

[Ryko]

So you want the changes so you can... still heal people and still use a whm sub?

If you don't get it, go back and read what people are saying until you do. I'm not repeating myself.

I read it the first time, it's a simple question, sorry if your ackbar senses are tingling. Yes or no, the changes offered will still do nothing to what a SMN subs and why they sub it.

No, it does not define it. Perhaps you are talking about something else(look at my previous response to Naygor). Berserk and Double Attack increases Melee Damage(something a NIN would be doing already). Provoke(and other potential hate grabbers) draws attention to them in order to use their natural utusemi. They are still "tanks", which is very evident in situations where the NIN is solo and is able to tank monsters fine and even not solo, but his/her teammate takes precautions to not steal hate.

A ninja's melee proficiency in of itself is often not remotely enough to hold hate in a way that would keep it stapled to them should a mob get a lucky round or 2 in, it's not a monk. You're not inviting a nin (for the purpose of tanking) then telling them it doesn't matter what they sub, if you say you will you're a liar. You will use some obscure 1 in a million abstract example to try to contend with what Im saying by making it clear it CAN be done, it does not mean you are the person to make it happen.

[FinalJustice]

I read it the first time, it's a simple question, sorry if your ackbar senses are tingling. Yes or no, the changes offered will still do nothing to what a SMN subs and why they sub it.

Because the answers are ALREADY there, why are you re asking what has already been answered? Had you actually read it, you'd see I have no problem with curing something. And w/e the hell ackbar is..

[BRP]

Ryko you are not wrong, but we aren't on the same page.

When I say defining, I don't mean the best or better sub. NIN are melee by design and tanks due to how effective utsusemi is. WAR does not add any unique features or styles but greatly enhances the ones given by NIN. This is not the case with SMN and /WHM. I hope I'm being clear.