Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Jordache]

So you want the changes so you can... still heal people and still use a whm sub?

If you don't get it, go back and read what people are saying until you do. I'm not repeating myself.

I read it the first time, it's a simple question, sorry if your ackbar senses are tingling. Yes or no, the changes offered will still do nothing to what a SMN subs and why they sub it.

[quote:0f8e6]No, it does not define it. Perhaps you are talking about something else(look at my previous response to Naygor). Berserk and Double Attack increases Melee Damage(something a NIN would be doing already). Provoke(and other potential hate grabbers) draws attention to them in order to use their natural utusemi. They are still "tanks", which is very evident in situations where the NIN is solo and is able to tank monsters fine and even not solo, but his/her teammate takes precautions to not steal hate.

A ninja's melee proficiency in of itself is often not remotely enough to hold hate in a way that would keep it stapled to them should a mob get a lucky round or 2 in, it's not a monk. You're not inviting a nin (for the purpose of tanking) then telling them it doesn't matter what they sub, if you say you will you're a liar.[/quote:0f8e6]

It's by convention that the playerbase makes nin tank. Nin can be a ranged class like RNG and COR (like it was origianlly intended to be) but we make it a tank, and it excels at tanking due to its high eva. and utsu. As it stands now smn can only be /whm 95% of the time without being a 1-min/trick pony.

Semi-Unrelated:
If nearly the entire playerbase that plays SMN has been crying for changes since the jobs release could there not be some sort of fundamental flaw with the job so as to warrant the requested changes? (see also BST and PUP)

[layoneil]

Just quit while you're behind. A WAR sub in exp does define a ninja, almost moreso than a NIN sub defines a WAR in exp. You're not inviting them to kurayami and swing their non-zerked katanas for piddly damage. /WAR is just as much a definition (actually much moreso) of why you invite a NIN to exp as their dual wield is, and since their function of utsusemi means jack and shit without the mob's attention...

i've XP'd on SMN where i never did a BP (RDM/BLM, BRD, 3 DDs), cast Cure III, status erase and rest MP, that's it.

i've never played NIN where i didn't cast Utsusemi, ever. /DRK can get a mob's attention too, just need a RDM willing to Refresh one extra person (and no it won't parse the same, but it will function exactly the same).

[Sasarai]

Ryko you are not wrong, but we aren't on the same page.

When I say defining, I don't mean the best or better sub. NIN are melee by design and tanks due to how effective utsusemi is. WAR does not add any unique features or styles but greatly enhances the ones given by NIN. This is not the case with SMN and /WHM. I hope I'm being clear.

His point is NIN cannot tank without /WAR pre-75, this isn't even debatable, its just not possible. So thusly, /WAR isn't enhancing NINs ability to tank, its only making it possible. Mitigation is only half the tanking job, enmity is the other.

[Cadena]

So you want the changes so you can... still heal people and still use a whm sub?

If you don't get it, go back and read what people are saying until you do. I'm not repeating myself.

I read it the first time, it's a simple question, sorry if your ackbar senses are tingling. Yes or no, the changes offered will still do nothing to what a SMN subs and why they sub it.

[quote:f2b01]No, it does not define it. Perhaps you are talking about something else(look at my previous response to Naygor). Berserk and Double Attack increases Melee Damage(something a NIN would be doing already). Provoke(and other potential hate grabbers) draws attention to them in order to use their natural utusemi. They are still "tanks", which is very evident in situations where the NIN is solo and is able to tank monsters fine and even not solo, but his/her teammate takes precautions to not steal hate.

A ninja's melee proficiency in of itself is often not remotely enough to hold hate in a way that would keep it stapled to them should a mob get a lucky round or 2 in, it's not a monk. You're not inviting a nin (for the purpose of tanking) then telling them it doesn't matter what they sub, if you say you will you're a liar. You will use some obscure 1 in a million abstract example to try to contend with what Im saying by making it clear it CAN be done, it does not mean you are the person to make it happen.[/quote:f2b01]

What Ryko said...you guys say /WHM defines your job because you're so narrowminded. When I party with a SMN, he/she better damn well be doing at least 2 of the following: Hastega, EW, and Ecliptic Howl. You don't need to spam Cure III unless your party sucks. A merit party with a SMN as a main or co-healer can easily get 15k/hr at least. And I've done that with the SMN throwing out a Predator Claws occasionally. Just because you're not getting to use your OMGWTFPWN Rage BP's every minute, it doesn't mean you aren't using your avatars to benefit the party.

I like nuking but you'll never see do it in an exp party. If you want fast exp, learn your place.

[Ryko]

I read it the first time, it's a simple question, sorry if your ackbar senses are tingling. Yes or no, the changes offered will still do nothing to what a SMN subs and why they sub it.

Because the answers are ALREADY there, why are you re asking what has already been answered? Had you actually read it, you'd see I have no problem with curing something. And w/e the hell ackbar is..

I'm not implying that YOUR problem is the sub, it does not change that you mentioned that to a lot of summoners it IS the problem. Jeryhn didn't mind and immediately you went "SEE? That was what I was trying to say". My question implied nothing either way though. Will the changes change what a smn subs and why they sub it?

When I say defining, I don't mean the best or better sub. NIN are melee by design and tanks due to how effective utsusemi is. WAR does not add any unique features or styles but greatly enhances the ones given by NIN. This is not the case with SMN and /WHM. I hope I'm being clear.

You seem to misunderstand the concept of what a tank is. It's not someone who can take a hit, anyone can do that. It's someone with the capability of sustaining enough enmity so the fact that they can take a hint isn't irrelevant. You invite a tank as much for their enmity generation as you do their damage mitigation. A NIN not subbing war is not holding hate, so their use of utsusemi becomes moot. A NIN's main job is not capable of generating that hate in of itself, that is why the subjob defines its role as a tank.

It's by convention that the playerbase makes nin tank. Nin can be a class like RNG and COR (like it was origianlly intended to be) but we make it a tank, and it excels at tanking due to its high eva. and utsu. As it stands now smn can only be /whm 95% of the time without being a 1-min/trick pony.

I really don't care for the "it's only that way because we made it that way" argument. Ignoring the tank capability it's still better at dealing damage as a melee DD than it would ranged attacking or throwing down mad ninja powders. If you wanna sit there with your naruto macros wondering why you're stuck into the unfair role of having to tank then by all means, do so. But frankly we're not in 2005 anymore, ninja's a tank, get over it.

[Jordache]

It's by convention that the playerbase makes nin tank. Nin can be a class like RNG and COR (like it was origianlly intended to be) but we make it a tank, and it excels at tanking due to its high eva. and utsu. As it stands now smn can only be /whm 95% of the time without being a 1-min/trick pony.

I really don't care for the "it's only that way because we made it that way" argument. Ignoring the tank capability it's still better at dealing damage as a melee DD than it would ranged attacking or throwing down mad ninja powders. If you wanna sit there with your naruto macros wondering why you're stuck into the unfair role of having to tank then by all means, do so. But frankly we're not in 2005 anymore, ninja's a tank, get over it.

Maybe I wasn't clear in the point I was trying to make. My point was that nin has or had the option of subbing something different that would cater to it's ranged abilities. It can also sub other melee (DRK @ 75 like mentioned above) and still be desired. Smn HAS to sub whm to even be considered viable. Not "OMGNARUTOMAGIKZ!!!! (hyoton:ichi)" macro spammage like was misinterpreted. Ninja is a tank, no argument and nothing stated to the contrary.

[FinalJustice]

Dude i don't have a problem with subbing of whm, and you know why?? Because NO sub in this game in their current forms would truly add to smns, or effect its BPS. The reason ppl started to sub /whm, is because there was nothing there. At least in B downtime they could do something useful since there wasn't any other option. Unless something came along that had Job traits that enhanced the power of pets, nothing else is worth subbing. SO no, the changes would not give smns a new sub to work with. And thats not what anyone (in their right mind anyway) is asking. Why do you think brds started subbing whm? What otehr sj would really do anything for a brd? Again it's not the /whm that bothers me about the job.

edit: brd comment was not referring to puller brds

[BRP]

A NIN not subbing war is not holding hate, so their use of utsusemi becomes moot.

Just so we are clear, I do think subjobs can define jobs and that isn't a flaw by itself.

I still don't agree with you. It's vital, but it still only improving on what is already there.

Also, stop being an asshole, I'm sure you are getting frustrated because people disagree with you over the internet, but enhance your calm.

[Naygor]

But a nin in exp can't tank without /war so the tanking bit was not already ther....oh I give up.

[BRP]

But a nin in exp can't tank without /war so the tanking bit was not already ther....oh I give up.

Yes it can, it is simply not as effective.

[Jordache]

Dude i don't have a problem with subbing of whm, and you know why?? Because NO sub in this game in their current forms would truly add to smns, or effect its BPS. The reason ppl started to sub /whm, is because there was nothing there. At least in B downtime they could do something useful since there wasn't any other option. Unless something came along that had Job traits that enhanced the power of pets, nothing else is worth subbing. SO no, the changes would not give smns a new sub to work with.

And this ties into why the smn mainjob needs to be adjusted. I'm at peace with /whm what else smn gonna do with 1300 mp? lolwaterII spam? I leave carby out to melee to enhance my healing proficiencies but indoing so I'm using my "main" job to enhance my support job. There in lies a source of the debate. (Not the leaving out of carby (other buffs are used in conjunction with) but the use of the main job to support the subjob. (and anyjob falling into this situation should be adjusted.) )

[Sasarai]

But a nin in exp can't tank without /war so the tanking bit was not already ther....oh I give up.

Yes it can, it is simply not as effective.

I don't know how you can say this is possible, unless you are playing a completely different game.

[Beckwin]

SMN can not cure without /WHM.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Healing_Ruby
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Light_Spirit

Do you play SMN? And don't try to point out that SMN with no SJ sucks at healing, because a NIN with no SJ sucks at tanking and DDing too.

[Missnasty]

SMN can not cure without /WHM.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Healing_Ruby
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Light_Spirit

Do you play SMN? And don't try to point out that SMN with no SJ sucks at healing, because a NIN with no SJ sucks at tanking and DDing too.

I'm pretty sure "SMN can not cure without /WHM" and "Curing every 60 seconds" mean the same thing . Yes a Light Spirit can cure more often but well but...

[Jordache]

SMN can not cure without /WHM.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Healing_Ruby
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Light_Spirit

Do you play SMN? And don't try to point out that SMN with no SJ sucks at healing, because a NIN with no SJ sucks at tanking and DDing too.

I'd like to see you in a situation where you can only get a cure once every 60 seconds. That's not creating problems, no siree...
and...
Everything needs a sub. Very few jobs can get by w/o the use of a sub and still be desired. (rdm mnk blm whm brd that i can think of) But in almost every case the sub compliments something the main already has. Like how /war adds provoke to allow tanking capabilities. Now imagine nin w/o a katana skill, or any melee weapon skill or enmity+ gear. That'd be the melee equivalent to what smn is now.

edit: light spirit is a fucking piece of shit.

[layoneil]

SMN can not cure without /WHM.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Healing_Ruby
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Spring_Water
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/Light_Spirit

Do you play SMN? And don't try to point out that SMN with no SJ sucks at healing, because a NIN with no SJ sucks at tanking and DDing too.

you ever try doing one of those right after Incinerate does 800 damage to your tank?

[Cadena]

But a nin in exp can't tank without /war so the tanking bit was not already ther....oh I give up.

Yes it can, it is simply not as effective.

SMN can DD; it is simply not as effective.

[Beckwin]

Yeah, and I acknowledged that it sucked, but they are still capable. Hell, I guess NIN is still capable of tanking (holding hate) by just spamming ninjutsu, but it'd be fucking awful as well, which is the point.

[FinalJustice]

And what does any of this have to do with addressing smn issues?

SMN can DD; it is simply not as effective

And no Subjob on earth will enhance its DD. Weeeeeeee

[BRP]

But a nin in exp can't tank without /war so the tanking bit was not already ther....oh I give up.

Yes it can, it is simply not as effective.

SMN can DD; it is simply not as effective.

They can't fulfill support though! Like I said, their DDing issues really comes from endurance and maybe even SC+MB being weak.