Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Naygor]

Do you even have a point any more? Smn is terrible without their subjob. Nin is terrible without their subjob. No one really cares about the rest or your grasping for straws.

[Jordache]

Do you even have a point any more? Smn is terrible without their subjob. Nin is terrible without their subjob.

Horray! '-')/

[layoneil]

Yeah, and I acknowledged that it sucked, but they are still capable. Hell, I guess NIN is still capable of tanking (holding hate) by just spamming ninjutsu, but it'd be fucking awful as well, which is the point.

seriously, has no ones ever done NIN/DRK anywhere outside of HNMs? it's not "fucking awful", it's a little worse (and more annoying for the RDM).

and since when in 2007 do you need 1 tank. so what if the NIN can't hold hate the entire fight, it's one of many jobs that can share hate for a short while and not be an MP sponge, the subjob doesn't dictate that, the main job does.

[Beckwin]

I was talking about NIN tanking with no SJ being awful like a SMN healing w/o a SJ. Sure, they both *can* do it technically, but it just sucks.

I've used nin/drk for some non-HNM and non-xp related stuff and it functions, but in an XP party it'd be greatly inferior to nin/war in terms of damage and support required to do the same job tanking.

[BRP]

Do you even have a point any more? Smn is terrible without their subjob. Nin is terrible without their subjob. No one really cares about the rest or your grasping for straws.

I can't believe you still don't get it.

It's not talking about (how effective) without subs or different subs... it's determining what defines a job. Read that line a few times please. Everyone is going to be subbing something, and likely subbing something useful like /WAR, /NIN, or /WHM.

Because SMN's main job features are either too weak or don't fit in the assault/exp style of play, they rely much too greatly on their /WHM sub(which introduces the role of healer).

[Beckwin]

I dunno how WHM sj alone "introduces" the role of healer when you have shit like Light Spirit and Healing Ruby inherent to the fucking job. Healing isn't the inherent focus of SMN, but the capability is there. Paladins have to suck it up and play mediocre DD for merits/assault generally, SMNs need to just suck it up and play healer for that kind of thing. Really, what do you want? A Rykoshet Avatar so you can do sweet damage in merits and be able to leave your avatar out?

[Cadena]

Last time I checked, SMNs are defined by their main job. If they weren't, why not just get a WHM75 instead of WHM37?

[LD]

Maybe I'm missing something here but when a WAR subs NIN how does it not increase damage? They DO get dual wield you know, along with making Suppa more useful and being able to offhand a joy/ridill/axe helps a lot with damage/tp. Compare that to MNK who get nothing offensively from subbing NIN.

Yes, you did miss something. I was specifically referring to MNK/NIN and that should have been clear from last two posts I made on the subject. MNK gains absolutely no offensive capabilities from /NIN, only defensive, and that makes it completely different from the other melee jobs. Hell, SAM can use Ridill and DRG can use joytoy, so even they get something out of it.

The argument was whether Utsusemi increases damage by prolonging one's lifespan, which makes about as much sense as healing being seen as directly contributing damage (when not used on undead. :x)

[layoneil]

Really, what do you want? A Rykoshet Avatar so you can do sweet damage in merits and be able to leave your avatar out?

forget the damage, make all Wards 5 Minute Duration, increase Ecliptic Howl potency by 100%, have Lightning/Frost Armor and Rolling Thunder be based on Summoning Magic Skill and double AOE of Wards.

Last time I checked, SMNs are defined by their main job. If they weren't, why not just get a WHM75 instead of WHM37?

everyone already does.

[Kaslo]

Wyrms: Vrta - yes (when not melee burned), Jorm - who does this anymore?, Tiamat - No, Ouryu - No, Bahamut - No.
Khim - Maybe, but how many times does Khim pop in a week? This is assuming you are getting the claim.
Cerb - RNG > SMN here.
Temperance - Eh? Last time I did Temperance, we had one and that was because that was the only job she had at 75 at the time. Temperance is very much doable without SMNs and if your strat is SMN burning, then you're taking way too long.
ENM - Unless you are talking about Corse, this hardly counts as a LS or end game event.

I was just saying things I use my SMN for, not specifically end game
Wyrms - Jorm & Tia I am SMN, not that Jorm is worth it or Tia can be claimed anymore lolol
Khim - SMN most of the time, claiming always an issue of course
Cerb - Same as Khim and I don't have RNG, mostly SAM/SMN damage for us and other random melee on it
Temperance - SMNs, RNGs and random melee most of the time, I should try BLU sometime
ENM - Just the two for me really lol, Uninvited Guests & Fire in the Sky, lots of jobs can do it better, easier and faster sure but this is still another thing some jobs can't do

BLU is kinda tough need to pace yourself on Temp or you will end up tanking, even with good kiters, but hey that's why I got wlegs ;p

but hey guys there is one point we are missing in the arguement, my blu can't refresh other people, nor myself, this is clearly a problem and needs to be fixed >.>

[Naygor]

Do you even have a point any more? Smn is terrible without their subjob. Nin is terrible without their subjob. No one really cares about the rest or your grasping for straws.

I can't believe you still don't get it.

It's not talking about (how effective) without subs or different subs... it's determining what defines a job. Read that line a few times please. Everyone is going to be subbing something, and likely subbing something useful like /WAR, /NIN, or /WHM.

Because SMN's main job features are either too weak or don't fit in the assault/exp style of play, they rely much too greatly on their /WHM sub(which introduces the role of healer).

Ok, so your only point is that their subjob defines them too much and even though there are other jobs that are perfectly fine with the exact same thing smn needs to be buffed because of this reason. Much better.

[Admo]

Last time I checked, SMNs are defined by their main job. If they weren't, why not just get a WHM75 instead of WHM37?

The MP and auto-refresh... that's it.

"Awww... there's no WHMs looking... well... since we've been waiting around for a half hour looking for a healer and that SMN has been looking for that long (or longer), I guess we'll just invite the SMN."

[Naygor]

Ohnoes I'm not good in exp, gotta get a buff.

[Admo]

Ok, so your only point is that their subjob defines them too much and even though there are other jobs that are perfectly fine with the exact same thing smn needs to be buffed because of this reason. Much better.

Subjobs should enhance your main job and not define it. When was the last time you invited (if at all) a SMN to your party to be a SMN? What if we didn't have subjobs? Would you invite a SMN?

[Beckwin]

Ohnoes I'm not the most desired job for a specific role in exp, gotta get a buff.

fixed

[Max™]

I heard a shell on my server talk about how Whm's are the best DD's in the game, at least when they're dual and triple wielding Kraken Drk's.

Also, someone photoshop a Rykoshet avatar already, geez, it's been what, 5 minutes since that was posted? I don't have any shoopin skills or I'd be on it.

[Naygor]

Ok, so your only point is that their subjob defines them too much and even though there are other jobs that are perfectly fine with the exact same thing smn needs to be buffed because of this reason. Much better.

Subjobs should enhance your main job and not define it. When was the last time you invited (if at all) a SMN to your party to be a SMN? What if we didn't have subjobs? Would you invite a SMN?

When's the last time I've invited a PUP in my party to do ANYTHING? At least what you do is necessary and not done by ten thousand jobs, but much much better.

[FinalJustice]

Ohnoes I'm not a desired job at ALL for ANY specific role in exp, unless the other jobs that out cure me, out support me, and out dd me are not around, I need a buff.

fix'd again for accuracy.

[Beckwin]

Ohnoes I'm not a desired job at ALL for ANY specific role in exp, unless the other jobs that out cure me, out support me, and out dd me are not around, I need a buff.

fix'd again for accuracy.

We're not talking about pld here.

[Loziel]

This thread in a nutshell if your not bothered to read it all

Page 1
SE: Hey everyone we are gonna try fixing 2hand weapons and adding cool new items to maybe drool over

Page 1&2
BG: Great lets hope they dont fook it up!

Around the middle somewhere
Red Mages: "Red mage would like something new, we are bored of being so awesome and need more"

Last 10 pages or so
BG: Smn is crap without /Whm sub and isnt that great with it either, except on some HNM's. Dont you DARE try meriting on it, lol