Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[LD]

Please let those update notes come tomorrow so this can end....

The argument ended 8 pages ago, this is just an exhibition match.

Absolutely has to be the best argument I've ever instigated. ^^

[Naygor]

Pup's in a worse situation, tbh.

Uh, yes, probably... I guess it depends on opinions.

PUP can perform the DD function decently enough, but lack spike damage and can't benefit from the PUP dmg + Auto dmg on anything IT++(let alone 15 levels above). Of course there is always the issue about gear... the difference is PUP has basically been gaining huge power boosts(omgmerits and attachments) that actually change the job. If the trend continues, and hopefully includes something more interesting for high-end end-game, PUP can probably fit right in without really being laughed at(by people who accept jobs other than WAR, BRD, MNK, BLM, etc).

You know repeating it doesn't make it true.

The comparison to WAR and NIN failed utterly. What ace are you hiding?

And to repeat another point: Boosting SMN does not prevent boosting of other jobs. Gasp!

Pup is the worst job meant to actually dd in a game where there are a lot of melee dds. Smn can at least cure if no one else is around. Pup has it worse. It's not debatable. Pup is also far worse in endgame too.

[Beckwin]

The damage overall is great (weaker in the world of meleeburn merit parties, but very very strong and unique in the world of HNMs)

People still use SMN on Kirin? We stopped ages ago. Same with tiamat, it seems alot of people use melee on it judging from SSes I see. Nobody uses SMN for 3 kings and I dont know what people do to Khim anymore. You act like just because you use smn everyone does and its completely the best hands down. SMN killing is pretty slow when you can just rape with melee.

Wait, you think I use SMNs a lot? You're extremely incorrect to assume so. But that doesn't change that they can do well in a variety of hnm situations. Are you gonna argue that they aren't useful at all in any endgame situations, or do you just not have a point?

[Ryko]

The comparison to WAR and NIN failed utterly. What ace are you hiding?

Neither failed, you just made it abundantly clear that you've never touched either of the jobs for more than 4 seconds. Your 2 dimensional views on tanking and a job's capability to perform its role aside just because you dismiss critical necessary parts of making something work does not mean it's not necessary nor defines the job. A nin cannot tank if it does not have hate. "It still has shadows" means shit if the mob isnt attacking said shadows and you're absolutely plain fucking retarded if you think a NIN/[anything but war or I guess to a smaller extent DRK in exp] is going to accomplish that or that WAR/NIN is somehow capable of being the hybrid tank it's supposed to be efficiently without a nin sub. No aces, just plugging your ears doesn't do shit.

[Koyangi]

I'm glad you understood my point about healing ruby and light spirit- oh wait, you didn't. Someone tried to argue that the only thing that introduced healing to SMN was the WHM sj, which is simply not true- SMN has the capability to restore hp without it (it's just not really convenient, but it's still a native part of the job).

/whm doesn't help smn "main heal" with Healing Ruby I/II and Spring Water etc, it adds an alternative that replaces them all together, so saying we can "main heal" without /whm is retarded because when we do main heal with /whm were hardly relying on our native job at all to run the level 37 whm role we were doing. a nin subbing war still has A- katanna skill, A- parry, A- ninjutsu, and DW... and still uses it whether or not it subs war or rng.

A smn can't main heal with a 50 minute recast healing ruby or spring water, nor would it be able to quickly respond to stuff on the fly, which a cure spell does, any job /whm would be able to provide the instant cure or debuff, our main job isn't being utilized to fit that action.

[Ryko]

a nin subbing war still has A- katanna skill, A- parry, A- ninjutsu, and DW... and still uses it whether or not it subs war or rng.

Yeah about that "tanking" thing... sub ranger and guess what, your parry goes out the window because you don't have hate. Least you can kage bullshit no jutsu your way into being just another sub-par melee DD though.

[BRP]

Please let those update notes come tomorrow so this can end....

The argument ended 8 pages ago, this is just an exhibition match.

Absolutely has to be the best argument I've ever instigated. ^^

Actually:

Also, as many have said, I think SMN needs a little love since things are becoming so fast-paced and speed-focused, and SMNs are anything but.

Because 600-1000 TP-less damage every 45 seconds (more damage over time and damage per TP than any other job minus BLM) and the ability to support a party of melee at the same time isn't already broken!

Are you gonna argue that they aren't useful at all in any endgame situations, or do you just not have a point?

I can only guess Not Kuno means they aren't so useful that they don't deserve a buff in other areas in the game, like some people seem to think.

A nin cannot tank if it does not have hate. "It still has shadows" means shit if the mob isn't attacking said shadows

To be absolutely clear, I was saying that a hate spike only enhances their ability to tank, but they are still built to tank. This is very clear in situations where hate spikes are not necessary(out of regular exp-like situations) where the NIN is doing something like holding/soloing a monster, is partnered with party members that will not steal hate due to caution, and even rather situational things like a NIN being able to tank in the 50s with elemental wheel and /BLM alone or using shurikens in a similar manner.

I'm not saying /WAR(or any sub that provides useful hate grabbing) isn't important, ineffective, or even not necessary in your average exp situation. What I am saying is that those hate tools only increase the effectiveness of utsusemi. Therefor: It augments, end of story.

and you're absolutely plain fucking retarded if you think a WAR/NIN is somehow capable of being the hybrid tank it's supposed to be efficiently without a nin sub.

Cool, I guess I'm not absolutely plain fucking retarded then, because I instantly said bloodtanking was broken this system making them designed to be a hybrid but unable to be without /NIN sub. I make it pretty clear that players don't see it as a natural hybrid and shouldn't unless that system it fixed. (shockingly similar to SMN, as you said so yourself)

No aces, just plugging your ears doesn't do shit.

Really now, you who refuses to accept the difference between "helping a style" and "introducing a style" can't say that without looking a little odd.

[Ryko]

To be absolutely clear, I was saying that a hate spike only enhances their ability to tank, but they are still built to tank.

Nothing is "built to tank" if it does not have the hate. It doesn't "enhance" an ability to tank, they're not tanking if they don't have it. Tanking is 2 things, enmity generation and damage mitigation, the latter is useless without the first, even a dumbshit MP sponge of a tank can still do their job if they can build the hate to do so. It doesn't "enhance" utsusemi, utsusemi does not work without it. It's like saying an MP bar "enhances healing skill". You're not curing jack shit without one.

[evilpaul]

Do I really need to look up what the best (for various situations) gearsets are for all the "we got nothing since RoZ" jobs? I don't see many people TPing in O.hats anymore for one thing.

Please dear god go do so so I can laugh when you go "well you got a turban and... well... turban!"

You don't read anything I write, just reply with out of context quotes and troll them, so I'll just point out those RoZ gloves on your sig. Oh, wait.

Aren't there other threads requiring your attention to crap upon them? I haven't seen you add anything or address anyone's points in 10+ pages.

Then once again you haven't been reading, which seems to be pretty common for you.

Wow, you're like Naygor's longwinded cousin with a neater sig!

SMN doesn't need all of those, the first part is fine, the 2nd and 3rd part sucks. and you definitely don't need to do all of that at that simultaneously.

So really, there's no "unfairness" about the job like people have been bitching about for 10 pages? The damage overall is great (weaker in the world of meleeburn merit parties, but very very strong and unique in the world of HNMs), the buffs are mediocre, and the healing is sub-par. I don't think jobs having strengths and weaknesses is "unfair"; I think it's called diversity.

Is this the abridged, implicit "OK-on-Tiamat" argument?

Damage: Sucks, but good on Tiamat. (Or should I switch to saying Khimaira since everyone touches themselves to Hauteclaire screenies now?)
Buffs: Mostly useless.
Healing: As good as a WHM37. Not as good as a PLD, BLU, or BLM doing the same party role with /WHM.

There's a difference between "balanced" and "you can't do anything else of value, so just spam Cure 3 when you aren't fighting Khimaira."

I've heard some reasonable proposals for minor improvements, but it's the ridiculous do-it-all attitudes and crying about unfairness, primarily referring to fucking merit parties, that makes this so incredulous. Not to mention silliness about SMN being the only job that relies heavily on SJ to function and war not being a tank and so on.

How about some BP: Wards being worth using? How about the avatar not stand so goddamned far back when you issue an Assault command that you can hit more than one party member with the Ward? Or maybe the Wards could have a slightly less tiny range?

How about Rages not be "Too Far Away" if the target moves at all because the avatar follows the target like every melee doing a WS does?

[Ryko]

You don't read anything I write, just reply with out of context quotes and troll them, so I'll just point out those RoZ gloves on your sig. Oh, wait.

That would be nice if any of the jobs I mentioned not having updates since RotZ were the ones who got homam. I mentioned 2 specifically, neither of them can even wear that gear. The irony here is that you're the one still learning basic literacy here.

Wow, you're like Naygor's longwinded cousin with a neater sig!

Is it cuz we're black?

[Koyangi]

To be absolutely clear, I was saying that a hate spike only enhances their ability to tank, but they are still built to tank.

Nothing is "built to tank" if it does not have the hate. It doesn't "enhance" an ability to tank, they're not tanking if they don't have it. Tanking is 2 things, enmity generation and damage mitigation, the latter is useless without the first, even a dumbshit MP sponge of a tank can still do their job if they can build the hate to do so. It doesn't "enhance" utsusemi, utsusemi does not work without it. It's like saying an MP bar "enhances healing skill". You're not curing jack shit without one.

PLD/WAR doesn't have shadows and it can tank well, but now PLD moved to /NIN to save MP pools and because bloodtanking is broken. /NIN doesn't have any hate tools so it's obvious PLD has more than enough hate tools to make /NIN work, so even without a subjob PLD can hold hate, and with enough cures, be the most effective of any other "tank" out there.

[Ryko]

To be absolutely clear, I was saying that a hate spike only enhances their ability to tank, but they are still built to tank.

Nothing is "built to tank" if it does not have the hate. It doesn't "enhance" an ability to tank, they're not tanking if they don't have it. Tanking is 2 things, enmity generation and damage mitigation, the latter is useless without the first, even a dumbshit MP sponge of a tank can still do their job if they can build the hate to do so. It doesn't "enhance" utsusemi, utsusemi does not work without it. It's like saying an MP bar "enhances healing skill". You're not curing jack shit without one.

PLD/WAR doesn't have shadows and it can tank well, but now PLD moved to /NIN to save MP pools and because bloodtanking is broken. /NIN doesn't have any hate tools so it's obvious PLD has more than enough hate tools to make /NIN work, so even without a subjob PLD can hold hate, and with enough cures, be the most effective of any other "tank" out there.

That's nice, I mentioned NIN/* and WAR/NIN, I even already threw the bone and said a dumbshit MP sponge bloodtank can still do their job if they can hold the hate to do so. A nin without 1 or 2 subjobs can do no such thing. So uh... thanks for agreeing with me, I guess.

[Dreampainter]

There is actually no way pup is in a worse situation than smn. Smn is always slow and rarely benefits from new spells (avatars) or new gear. Diabolos was complete garbage. There has always been a silent hate for smn. Nobody ever said anything about it like they did with drg, but most situations i have run into players would rather wait or not do something at all if they had to choose smn to participate. The only reason nobody ever made smn lol's is because it started at a time when people actually wanted smn for hnm.

SE gave themselves no room to improve smn after they added it and now has to move mountains just to improve the job even a little bit (last year's smn skill and split timers update). Pup on the other hand is a job where the company gave themselves plenty of room to boost the job without any trouble. I was invited to a manaburns on Mt. Zhaloyom as pup in the past few weeks. Never once been invited to one of those as smn, after over 4 years the job is still the slowest job in the game at doing anything.


Pup is the only job that has absolute control over enhancing its pet. That job can only get stronger as time goes on, but smn gets weaker with every strategy-pahse the player base changes to. The only way to fix smn is to make it so that avatars stay out more often and SE knows that. It is a weakness to not have an avatar out when playing as smn, because when something happens you won't be able to react to it in time.


Go through every job and ask yourself how many subs can each job in the game mix it up with in different strategies? Some jobs can even use almost any sub (drg can use whm,rdm,blm,blu,war,thf,sam effectively), yet summoner is absolutely bound to one sub with no chance of variation.

[BRP]

Not at all Ryko. You make it seem that it's impossible for a NIN to grab hate without such hatespikes in many situations(some of which I already listed). Ineffective as it tend to be, it's still an incredibly impressive option because of the damage mitigation alone(of which doesn't sacrifice damage or spell casting ability). NIN are tanks(deemed by players) with a lack of hate spikes to make it ineffective in the basic party situation without a subjob to make up for that weakness. In any case, they continue to do DDish things, Tankish things, and most importantly Ninja-ish things. This is where your comparison to SMN fails.

[Beckwin]

Why do people keep ignoring the fact that SMN can haste people? Fucking honestly, that's how a judge a healer in an xp party anyway.

[Ryko]

You make it seem that it's impossible for a NIN to grab hate without such hatespikes in many situations(some of which I already listed).

"No one else doing anything at all" is not an enmity tool, that goes back to the concept that soloing is not tanking. There is no "tankish things" without hate. Like I said, it's like saying an MP bar is only an enhancement to one's curing ability. It's fundamental to its existence.

[Naygor]

That was one of the worst arguments I ever heard. Nowhere in it did you acknowledge that pup is at the bottom end of the totem pole of melee dds, and all you did was cite a manaburn (which is kinda lol in comparison to most meleeburns). Also, I've partied on blm in manaburns with smns sometimes and it works fine. If they didn't invite you the problem is probably on your end. I see some other crap about being pidgeon-holed with subs, but we've been going over that for the past several pages so it's not even worthwhile. There's also something about how it's a weakness to not always have your avatar out all the time to react to stuff, but I've seen smns cast cure 3 without their avatar out so I have no idea what you're talking about. If my party is wiping I sure as hell wouldn't get my stoneskin BP ready. Pup's one focus is to do damage and they fail pretty hard at that when looking at every other melee job. This is not worth even debatable.

[FinalJustice]

La de fucking DA smn can haste people. Now let's talk about something that didn't just happen when smm skill change was made.

[evilpaul]

You don't read anything I write, just reply with out of context quotes and troll them, so I'll just point out those RoZ gloves on your sig. Oh, wait.

That would be nice if any of the jobs I mentioned not having updates since RotZ were the ones who got homam. I mentioned 2 specifically, neither of them can even wear that gear. The irony here is that you're the one still learning basic literacy here.

Yeah, you're right. Everyone's in Salvage solely for a Morrigan's Robe.

[Naygor]

Not at all Ryko. You make it seem that it's impossible for a NIN to grab hate without such hatespikes in many situations(some of which I already listed). Ineffective as it tend to be, it's still an incredibly impressive option because of the damage mitigation alone(of which doesn't sacrifice damage or spell casting ability). NIN are tanks(deemed by players) with a lack of hate spikes to make it ineffective in the basic party situation without a subjob to make up for that weakness. In any case, they continue to do DDish things, Tankish things, and most importantly Ninja-ish things. This is where your comparison to SMN fails.

Your argument is still retarded:

"Smn is pidgeon-holed because it can't heal without its subjob and no other job has this problem"
"What about nin, without /war it's a pretty awful tank and has crappy damage?"
"No nin can still cast shadows, dual wield, and there's always the off chance they'll pull hate"
"Yeah, but they're still pretty awful, I mean smn can use BPs to heal people but I wouldn't say that alone makes them a healer."
"What are you, retarded? Smn can only use those BPs once a minute, it's so small a boost that it's not even worth noting"

Anyone else see where I'm going with this?