Battle System Adjustments (08/14/2007)

[Nuketwig]

....God damnit....

Aurik is right because he proved he doesn't know WHY it works.

Haste, as it pertains to auto-attack, is only useful if you're getting another attack round.
Accuracy, while it does have a point, also has a point where having more of it at the cost of more damage is pointless. That is WHY Fumas aren't that great and WHY Sushi is lol in merit.


Now, for the love of God, get back on my path to glory.

Fumas being less than ideal has nothing to do with haste, and more to do with the fact that Dune Boots kick ass. lol I made a pun.

[Demosthenes11]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

[aurik]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

Probably because he likes to put words into peoples mouths, and then argue that they mean the same thing. I mean, terrible is the same thing as mediocre, rite guyz?

[orinthia]

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8...ionsjpgac9.jpg

PROMOTIONS FOR EVERYONE!

[FinalJustice]

haha

[Mertron]

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8...ionsjpgac9.jpg

PROMOTIONS FOR EVERYONE!

http://www.birdman.lastvigilante.com/images/phil1.jpg

PROOOOOOOOMOTIONS!

[LD]

It's selfish because many of you have been acting like you're entitled to it. Like you more than just need it, you deserve it. I can admit it would be nice to see Avatar melee actually be useful or some such other thing, but when DRG, BST, & PUP are still fucked and when you still get a position of power in at least ONE situation, it all just screams of greed.

I want a LOT of changes for Monk. I don't even care if it might break it. I'm not going to pretend I need it though, because while I'm not be the best Monk or have the most stuff, I play the most powerful Physical Fighter in this game.

Ben Parker had it right.

[Tonko]

And now we're just going to have to wait for the update! Because this has degenerated into a terribly mediocre bitch fest about semantics and what we feel or don't feel should be done about things of which we have no power over, I'm locking the thread.

[layoneil]

You and your peers are choosing to only use SMN on Tia/Cerb/Khim every month, just like people chose to not use MNK on HNMs at all in years past. Deal with it; it's a malleable condition so you're really only got yourself to blame.

this is the biggest load of bull.

"You and your peers are choosing not to use DRG/PUP/BST in merits. Deal with it; it's a malleable condition so you're really only got yourself to blame. Therefore all of those jobs are perfectly fine." (i don't believe this btw)

we don't choose to use SMN on anything else cause they are a waste of a spot that can be replaced by a better job. it's not any more or less malleable than PUP in merits.

and people didn't use MNK on HNMs in years past because
1) no merits
2) no good gear for most MNKs
3) no multiple BRDs for every party

if you think people could've melee burned Kirin in 2005 when most MNKs couldn't afford 2 NQ Sniper's, Spectacles and a Scorpion Harness, you're insane, delusional or both.

go ahead and have your MNKs delete their merits, melee Kirin with any 2 BRD songs, 2 STR rings, Spike Necklace, AF Body, Brown Belt and see how that works out.

I'm asking for a concise clarification, if you don't mind. What exactly is broken about the job other than ward duration and BP out of range issues? You've maintained that xp is not the issue and neither are the HNM capabilities of the job. So what is it?

Dynamis/Besieged/Limbus/Einherjar/Salvage
1) you don't use it to kill statues, because by the time you get your Avatar out the BLMs killed them already.
2) you don't use it to DD normal mobs with it, because by the time you get your Avatar out the Melees killed them already.
3) you don't use it to dispel, because by the time you get your Avatar out the RDMs and BRDs did it already.
4) you don't use it to support because the support buffs suck. if the melees are slightly spread out you'll always miss Hastega on at least one of them and you can't do it again for 1 minute.
5) you don't use it to sleep adds, because by the time you get your Avatar out the adds already killed someone, Sleepga gets resisted like crazy and they'll wake up before or right around the same time you can BP again.
6) you don't use the BPs to cure, because by the time you get your Avatar out the target is either cured by someone else or dead.
7) you don't use it to DD in Limbus, because if you want to 6 man a zone and get a good number of coins (not force yourself to open a time chest every floor), you have to do damage more than once every 50 seconds.
8) you don't use it to DD in Einherjar, because if you want to finish in 30 minutes, you have to do damage more than once every 50 seconds.
9) you don't use it at all in Salvage, because you need Magic, Abilities and Subjob Cells before you're worth a damn.
10) you don't use them in Dynamis/Besieged because of the freaking lag and everyone wanting to punch you in the face on top of 1-6.

XP is an issue just the same. the only reason you use SMN in any of these situations is because that SMN doesn't have another job. a DRG/BST/PUP that has good gear and can get a spot in a melee PT with BRD songs isn't any worse than a SMN.

the biggest underlying problem for SMNs are 4 fold.
1) They have long casting time
2) They have long recast time
3) They have short buff duration and mediocre potency
4) All Pet Jobs suck because they can't be targeted for cure spells, get Song/Roll Buffs, equipped well, eat food

BRDs have long casting time but their buffs have high potency and long duration.
CORs have long recast time but they have short casting time and their buffs have relative high potency and long duration.
BLMs have long casting time but have relatively short recast time (relative in that after Thunder IV you can use Blizzard IV, after Sleepga II you can use Sleepga or Sleep II).

change any one of the first 3 points and SMN will be a much better job. change 2 of the first three points and it becomes overpowered and unnecessary (anyone that wants 2 of these changed at the same time is being greedy).

as much stuff as they may add in every patch, the only two that have been in this direction is
- increased Hastega duration (good change, but 1 buff is not enough, BRDs and CORs don't get away with doing just 1 good buff)
- decreased recast time by splitting up Rage and Ward (good change, but it's akin to telling BLMs to cast Shock Spikes between Thunder IVs, more Wards have to be worth using before this change has a true benefit)

depending on how you change point 4, you might break the game.

---

unlocked because Chocobets isn't getting anyone through the day.

[Zhais]

Jesus Christ on a Hotbun this topic exploded

[Hapernack]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

Because he was a big joke and one of the biggest dumbasses Siren ever had to put up with so he ran off to Fairy to find people who didn't know him. Now you all see why.

[Jordache]

please make page 40... I'll die of cancer if it doesn't...

[Beckwin]

and people didn't use MNK on HNMs in years past because
1) no merits
2) no good gear for most MNKs
3) no multiple BRDs for every party

if you think people could've melee burned Kirin in 2005 when most MNKs couldn't afford 2 NQ Sniper's, Spectacles and a Scorpion Harness, you're insane, delusional or both.

Honestly I think that's a cop-out. The shell I was in 2 years ago wasn't elite or anything, but we had mnks with accuracy gear. The real reason why people weren't melee burning kirin is because no one had really tried it yet, and because everyone had a hard-on for BLMs and ironically, SMNs. Yes, Ridills and Black Belts weren't as common back then, but the possibility was still there for top shells. And I want to say around two years ago is when some shells stopped kiting 100% and actually stopping for awhile and meleeing it, resuming kiting when needed.

Remember when it was loldrk and lolrng in xp? Been there, done that, got good xp and even outdamaged quite a few people along the way. I'm not gonna level a job that I'm uninterested in to further prove the point, but ask good THFs and DRGs about how their job can do in xp. I think there's more job balance to the game than people like to give credit to, but everyone is fixated on MNK and WAR being the clear kings of fodder mobs and ignoring that everyone else still functions pretty well on a respectable step below.

You say one would only use smn in xp because they might not have another job- which is fine. I don't think most people with BLM levelled merit on that job outside of solo or the occasional manaburn, and I also seem to recall that SMN burns are possible as well. Either way, I guess ideally the only job I'm supposed to merit on is Ninja, but that definitely is not the case.

Your list of SMN shortcoming on fodder mobs is a little superfluous; no one is really arguing that they do well as DD in those situations. Your list of 4 main shortcomings seems accurate, but if you cut the recast time significantly at all (to where it might be compareable to a BLM being able to cast spells in succession), you end up with a really overpowered job that again, like I've said numerous times, has absolutely no risk involved. You also agree that your #4 could be broken as well, as that would lead to much increased melee capabilities, which has also been discussed before. Casting time and ward duration is what we're left with, and some minor fixing to those doesn't seem too out of the question. Just keep in mind that you're never really going to be a brd equivalent without an Elegy equivalent, and you'll never really fill a true support-only role in a party without refresh of some sort. That's why I don't really like when people compare SMN negatively against brd/cor- they just aren't in the same category.

[Beckwin]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

Because he was a big joke and one of the biggest dumbasses Siren ever had to put up with so he ran off to Fairy to find people who didn't know him. Now you all see why.

lolwut?

[Naygor]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

Because he was a big joke and one of the biggest dumbasses Siren ever had to put up with so he ran off to Fairy to find people who didn't know him. Now you all see why.

You're an idiot. Forget the fact you said you didn't even know who I was in the other thread, let's add on to it the fact that you were too stupid to level a whm sub for blm because erase cost too much and you bragged about leeching fenrir like it was cool or something. Then, you go on your zam rant about how salvage ruined everything you wanted to accomplish and put the game on easy mode (and tbh what you accomplished is nothing short of being a pain in the ass and your claim that it put it on easy mode is nothing short of downright wrong) and now I hear that you're running around trying to sell your gear for khroma ore. Shut up, stop being a hypocrite, and quit pretending like you know me because everyone once in awhile you popped up in ls chat before everyone ran you out because you were such an ass/they hated you.

[Hapernack]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

Because he was a big joke and one of the biggest dumbasses Siren ever had to put up with so he ran off to Fairy to find people who didn't know him. Now you all see why.

You're an idiot. Forget the fact you said you didn't even know who I was in the other thread, let's add on to it the fact that you were too stupid to level a whm sub for blm because erase cost too much and you bragged about leeching fenrir like it was cool or something. Then, you go on your zam rant about how salvage ruined everything you wanted to accomplish and put the game on easy mode (and tbh what you accomplished is nothing short of being a pain in the ass and your claim that it put it on easy mode is nothing short of downright wrong) and now I hear that you're running around trying to sell your gear for khroma ore. Shut up, stop being a hypocrite, and quit pretending like you know me because everyone once in awhile you popped up in ls chat before everyone ran you out because you were such an ass/they hated you.

Aww did I hit a nerve on the little boy? Noone cares. You always have been and you can't even follow a topic much less make a valid arguement about anything. Of course I didn't remember you much because who the fuck cares to remember someone who's this stupid? Not to mention you're nothing but a bullshit liar considering WHM was my only sub for BLM up until about a year ago. "zam rant"? You don't even know how the game works and even worse you CONDONE the act of being ignorant as opposed to maybe LEARNING a little about what you're doing.

Since when is selling off old gear for gil to get new gear a bad thing? You can't even make a valid point. Do you even know what the word "hypocrite" means? I guess not because you can't seem to use it in the correct context. Every time anyone has to talk to you we have to dumb it down because your stupid attitude acts like a wall that seems to block out reason.

[Naygor]

Why is it every time Naygor is involved in a thread it turns into a bitch thread about semantics?

Because he was a big joke and one of the biggest dumbasses Siren ever had to put up with so he ran off to Fairy to find people who didn't know him. Now you all see why.

You're an idiot. Forget the fact you said you didn't even know who I was in the other thread, let's add on to it the fact that you were too stupid to level a whm sub for blm because erase cost too much and you bragged about leeching fenrir like it was cool or something. Then, you go on your zam rant about how salvage ruined everything you wanted to accomplish and put the game on easy mode (and tbh what you accomplished is nothing short of being a pain in the ass and your claim that it put it on easy mode is nothing short of downright wrong) and now I hear that you're running around trying to sell your gear for khroma ore. Shut up, stop being a hypocrite, and quit pretending like you know me because everyone once in awhile you popped up in ls chat before everyone ran you out because you were such an ass/they hated you.

Aww did I hit a nerve on the little boy? Noone cares. You always have been and you can't even follow a topic much less make a valid arguement about anything. Of course I didn't remember you much because who the fuck cares to remember someone who's this stupid? Not to mention you're nothing but a bullshit liar considering WHM was my only sub for BLM up until about a year ago. "zam rant"? You don't even know how the game works and even worse you CONDONE the act of being ignorant as opposed to maybe LEARNING a little about what you're doing.

Since when is selling off old gear for gil to get new gear a bad thing? You can't even make a valid point. Do you even know what the word "hypocrite" means? I guess not because you can't seem to use it in the correct context. Every time anyone has to talk to you we have to dumb it down because your stupid attitude acts like a wall that seems to block out reason.

No nerve, I just like to call a spade a spade. I'm sorry if I phrased it wrong, but you definitely didn't wanna continue with your whm sub at one point because of erase and that's kinda sad since you (as far as I know) only have one 75 and if you can't even do that right you kinda suck.

And yes, I know what a hypocrite is. Apparently you don't, but instead feel that if you use the word "idiot" enough times in your post it'll hide that. Here, let me point this out for you:

"Blargh. I hate you SE. Salvage is so dumb, it's ruined everything I've tried to do, and it puts the game on easy mode (which again is still not true and I do appreciate your selective reading)."

Couple months later

"Hay guyz, I got 3/3 of the items for morrigan's robe which is an improvement over what I previously had."

Now, I'm not a ****ing genius or anything, but if salvage was as bad as you said you probably wouldn't have done it. Or, maybe you needed the game on easy mode as you claimed that's what salvage does. Looks like a contradiction to me.

[Demosthenes11]

this guy is such a flaming moron it makes my head hurt -.-

[Naygor]

Shhh, the big boys are talking. The peanut gallery needs to wait outside.

[Admo]

Why are people still arguing with these two morons? Most of the shit they are saying is bullshit and they probably know it too... they're just getting off on getting a rise out of people.