Sneak Attack + Sturmwind

[archibaldcrane]

So, um...

On KI some random guy came on the thief job board and was blabbing on about how in taking WAR/THF from 30-38 or whatever he'd connected on both hits of SA+Sturmwind every single time - "over 100 WS in a row". He was theorizing that there was some sort of ninja-change to /thf WSs or that something odd was going on.

Of course, everyone rained shit on him for 5 pages about how "It just guarantees accuracy for the first of the two hits" and decided that he was either exceptionally lucky, picking and choosing his data, stupid, or straight up lying.

Everyone kept saying "all you have to do is..." anything from trying it on a paladin while flashed in ballista, to finding a thf mob 15+ levels higher than you and doing SA+sturmwind naked a few times.

All of which seem like reasonable ways to shoot his theory to shit. But no one was doing them.

So I finally did.

Alright you motherfuckers, this has gone on long enough.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_122643.jpg

I'll be right back.

edit: Ok, back.

So, I took my 36 war/thf (it was 37, but I died and deleveled right at the start when my healer lagged out) to Eastern Altepa Desert. Completely naked except for 504 delay Centurion Axe. First hit from 0 tp gives 13 tp. Wiki has it listed as 13.7 TP/Hit, which makes sense. Figured that the level 45-49 Goblin Robber thief mobs would do nicely for this test - high evasion, thief evasion traits, etc.

Here goes: (on my galka honor I swear I am posting every single screenshot of every single SA+Sturmwind I did over the course of the tests. I did not omit anything.)

WS #1:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_124417.jpg
Log of #1:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_124423.jpg

WS #2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_125052.jpg
Log of #2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_125100.jpg

WS #3 (log only):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_125255.jpg

WS #4:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_125558.jpg

WS #5:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_125849.jpg

Ok, so by this point I'm saying ...WTF, why am I not missing any 2nd hits? There's a couple 16s in there after I got hit, but they were all 14 TP return, which implies I'm connecting with both.

So I said fuck it, time to step up the game.

I went to Western Altepa Desert, and made my whm friend change to 75 bard.

With double minuets, meat mithkabob, and Berserk, I had 397 attack (I put on republic subligar for +5 attack, otherwise still naked with Centurion's Axe)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_134301.jpg

So, I found the highest level regular mob in the whole zone - Phoruschacos. They are 57-60. Now, from my calculations (using the Damage Calculator on the left side of this page), if you give them the stats of a lesser colibri (which are 63-65) my lowest melee hit would be 1 - I could not hit for 0 at 36 with 397 attack and 49 STR against a level 60 with 241 defense and 55 VIT.

But I didn't want to get a 13 TP return and wonder if my calcs were off, and I didn't want the bard to dia it because we needed to gtfo of there after this test, and she didn't bring her sword to kill it.

So I used Mighty Strikes. It's definitely not possible to crit for 0 at that level vs. a level 60 mob. There's no way.

...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...816_134330.jpg

I don't know man. Shit is weird.

...

Seriously, wtf. Why couldn't I miss a 2nd hit on a mob -at least- 21 levels above me? What...the fuck? Someone make this make sense.

I didn't know what to expect going into this...but I didn't expect this.

I know, I know, I know what /thf Sneak Attack does. I know. You don't have to tell me what hits it makes 100% accurate. Seriously, I know.

But what's going on here?

[Yutuyu]

I'd try testing just using the WS without SA next and seeing if the 2nd hit always hits.

It's a long shot, but... Maybe it's (the second hit) magical, or bugged? I think Blast-Shot is hybrid melee/missile, so I don't see why a hybrid magic/melee attack is impossible, but... I have no idea.

[Kriz]

Very interesting! What other two hit WS are there? As a White Mage off the top of my head all I can think of is Black Halo (Club).

[archibaldcrane]

The guy claimed it also works for Tachi: Enpi /thf, but others disputed that very claim. One guy did a bunch of tests with Double Thrust and the results were all over the map (meaning it wasn't 100% accuracy on 2nd hit). That's all I've seen so far. I only have firsthand experience with 6 SA+sturmwinds on stuff way too high and it working.

[draxyl]

Oh jesus fuck, not on this forum too

[Eaglestrike]

Oh jesus fuck, not on this forum too

Just stay quiet so no one knows you're here like me...

...wait, shit.

[draxyl]

Based on the data, I'm honestly starting to agree that something is broke with Sturmwind + /thf. It hasn't been shown for any other WS, but for Sturmwind...damn, its repeatable as hell.

[archibaldcrane]

Based on the data, I'm honestly starting to agree that something is broke with Sturmwind + /thf. It hasn't been shown for any other WS, but for Sturmwind...damn, its repeatable as hell.

I don't want to agree, but I'm starting to as well. And...if so, it's kind of a big deal, right? What is going on?

[Carnusty]

From what I've heard/read on other THF's blogs and forums and random stuff, Sneak attack or trick attack (Post assassin) will guarantee 100% accuracy with the following melee strikes in that attack rally.

I think someone proved it when SA'ing with a Kraken club. Each of the 2-8 hits following SA connected, regardless of number or mob evasion.

Was a test done a long while ago that I remember. My mind might be hazy though

[cassiraa]

So in that case, because Sturmwind says:

Delivers a two-hit attack. Damage varies with TP.

= Delivers 1 (two-hit) attack.
and

Sneak attack or trick attack (Post assassin) will guarantee 100% accuracy with the following melee strikes in that attack rally.

would make sense,

That 1 (two-hit) attack receives the SA Accuracy.


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14.../sy1021aR1.jpg

[Tradition]

How is this news

Did no one ever SA+Viper Bite back in the day <_<

[Yutuyu]

How is this news

Did no one ever SA+Viper Bite back in the day <_<

Viper Bite: Deals double damage and Poisons target. Duration of poison varies with TP.
Sturmwind: Delivers a two-hit attack. Damage varies with TP.

= not the same.

Blade: Jin: Delivers a three-hit attack. Chance of critical varies with TP.

So the double attack/triple attack logic doesn't carry, there's nothing special about sturmwind being "a two-hit" instead of "two-hit."

EDIT: And it's proven not to work for tachi: enpi which has an indentical description.

[Tradition]

Well, that certainly blew up in my face

[Yutuyu]

It was a good thought, it's possible maybe that sturmwind is glitched to behave like VB?

[cassiraa]

It was a good thought, it's possible maybe that sturmwind is glitched to behave like VB?

no, Viperbite is calculated differently. BUT it's possible that Sturmvent is scripted as a Warrior's Double-Attack [2 swings but considered 1 attack] instead of a 2-fold attack [2 attacks]

[archibaldcrane]

It was a good thought, it's possible maybe that sturmwind is glitched to behave like VB?

no, Viperbite is calculated differently. BUT it's possible that Sturmvent is scripted as a Warrior's Double-Attack [2 swings but considered 1 attack] instead of a 2-fold attack [2 attacks]

But if this is true, is it a re-scripting? I have a feeling that something must've changed, because there's no way this would've gone unnoticed until now.

[Uzor]

It was a good thought, it's possible maybe that sturmwind is glitched to behave like VB?

no, Viperbite is calculated differently. BUT it's possible that Sturmvent is scripted as a Warrior's Double-Attack [2 swings but considered 1 attack] instead of a 2-fold attack [2 attacks]

But if this is true, is it a re-scripting? I have a feeling that something must've changed, because there's no way this would've gone unnoticed until now.

This is recent. I PL'd myself when I took WAR up to 37, and I went WAR/THF. Was a bit over a year ago? Wasn't 100% on both hits back then at least.

[Conrad]

Maybe this can also be tested with a larger WS, like SA+Penta Thrust or SA+Rampage? If all five hits connect on either of those, there may have some sort of backing to the "100% ACC on attack rally" theory.

[jerkbox]

Thieves get less than full TP return all the time with SA+DE so it has nothing to do with the additional attacks in one round theory. Sturmwind may just be totally different... especially if it's been proven that SA+Enpi can miss on the second hit...

[Evelyn]

I don't really think its an issue with a scripted double-attack. Even a standard SA+double attack doesn't guarantee a hit on the second attack. Interesting, but I think its bugged, not a virtue of that ws or similar ones.

My guess is we won't see that anymore after the patch, if/when GAxe ws are retooled.