Ridill vs Mandau vs MNK/WAR

[NynJa]

I used to think "I'd never want Ridill on THF" until I played a bunch with a THF friend who had it, and he was always shredding everything faster than me by a huge margin. If you spend most of your time doing things like Dynamis, Salvage and general NM camping (not HNM), Ridill can be quite good on THF, but it seems like most people would consider someone who primarily does those things to be "toy" players. ;p

At any rate, since WARs are actually using Ridill on HNMs these days, the argument that it's a toy for them too is no longer valid, so I don't believe so strongly in the above sentiment anymore. And to be explicit, I'm saying if you use it on HNM, it's not a toy.

Sure, Ridill can work on THF in Dynamis, if you're one of those nub dynamis LS's who are still gloating about "ZOMG BEAT *CITY* BOSS", where those mobs are something like lvl 70.
Sure, Ridill can work on THF in Salvage, only for the first 1-3 floors (5f areas work for 1-2, 7f areas work for 1-3), where my naked thief can use meat and land h2h hits reliably (fact: h2h skill is lower than sword skill).
Sure, Ridill can work on THF when farming lvl 40 mobs, but I'd rather go Mandau/TK over TK/Ridill.

WAR base sword skill at 75 is 250 (equivalent to a lv70 A+), THF base sword skill at 75 is 210 (equivalent to a lv61 A+).


You may have 'shred' things with your friends Ridill THF, but I flat out demolish things without any Ridill.

[divisortheory]

You may have 'shred' things with your friends Ridill THF, but I flat out demolish things without any Ridill.

While you may 'flat out demolish' them with mandau/Thief's Knife, i'm sure he could 'annihilate them' with Ridill

[Priran]

fuuuuuuuck

[Eaglestrike]

A THF speaking about utility of items and jobs? lol. If you really cared about utility of items you wouldn't have sponsored dynamis over a BRD or PLD in your LS getting horn and aegis. Your mandau is a toy, the only real "utility" knife you need is THF Knife. Waste of gil and dynamis currency!

Too bad there was no BRD or PLD that sponsored the Dynamis LS's I did. Well, save the one PLD that started when I was only a few thousand bynes away (and I purchased most of those bynes).

You can't really bitch about him not seeing the grey when he was basing his statement as a response (if one was concerned with utility over e-peen they wouldn't have gotten a personal e-peen item over other options that provide way more utility, unless the buck stops at the point where it doesn't become personally gratifying.). Secondly plenty of jobs still use sushi, a thf doing the same can still use a ridill and honestly easily outdo most setups short of the "big three". It's not zomguber but it's far from "practically useless" and you will be holding up your end in a merit party with no problem.

Thief sword skill is 210, using sushi gives us around the same accuracy as WAR does without aggressor or food. Then there's the whole issue that using sushi leads to keeping the jobs biggest weakness there, a low base attack, and giving our offhand a very low attack. Thf's with Ridill's need one or two minuets to break 1.0 pDIF with it, and they'll just barely be reaching that. Hitting for 40 damage per hit with a Ridill? That's weak, considering all your work has to be centered around making the Ridill hit as often as your dagger. Since Homam thief has been gifted to have both accuracy and haste in their best gearset, it's stupid to waste it by using non-daggers. If THF is granted at least a B sword, I'll reconsider Ridill's practicality for THF, until then I see it as far less efficient than what daggers do for us, even without a Mandau.

I'm sorry if my definition of utility has a scope bigger than Dragon's Aery. Just because something isn't useful for HNM, doesn't mean it isn't useful for other things, like Assault, Salvage, small-manning mission BC's, etc. I truly believe Ridill on THF to not even be useful for those things, therefore it lacks utility completely, whereas my Mandau has been quite useful in what I do in the game, and so has utility.

[Ryko]

Thief sword skill is 210, using sushi gives us around the same accuracy as WAR does without aggressor or food. Then there's the whole issue that using sushi leads to keeping the jobs biggest weakness there, a low base attack, and giving our offhand a very low attack. Thf's with Ridill's need one or two minuets to break 1.0 pDIF with it, and they'll just barely be reaching that. Hitting for 40 damage per hit with a Ridill? That's weak, considering all your work has to be centered around making the Ridill hit as often as your dagger. Since Homam thief has been gifted to have both accuracy and haste in their best gearset, it's stupid to waste it by using non-daggers. If THF is granted at least a B sword, I'll reconsider Ridill's practicality for THF, until then I see it as far less efficient than what daggers do for us, even without a Mandau.

You're seriously prepared to make the contention that a thf with a ridill wouldn't outdo a thf with 2 daggers, having never owned one. I'm not saying "zomg give a THF a ridill immediately", far from it, but I do like how one can immediately throw a blanket statement...

I'm sorry if my definition of utility has a scope bigger than Dragon's Aery. Just because something isn't useful for HNM, doesn't mean it isn't useful for other things, like Assault, Salvage, small-manning mission BC's, etc.

..Then turn around and get all huffy when one is thrown right back at them.

A horn would still be better for assault, salvage, small manning anything, etc. It's not like a bard sucks in any of those situations, your "scope" is largely irrelevant to his point, and outside of HNMs you're frankly just another DD with a shiny weapon, bfd.

[Yutuyu]

I think the most interesting part of this topic is perhaps the fact that after this patch everything's going to change. MNK WAR NIN, best DDs in the game in merit parties. Dual wielders are far better than 2 handers. But with the 2 hand change coming, things're going to be completely different.

So watching people argue over who the best job for dual wielding is, makes me laugh. It's like watching a bunch of endangered species arguing over who's hide is worth the most.

[Ryko]

I think the most interesting part of this topic is perhaps the fact that after this patch everything's going to change. MNK WAR NIN, best DDs in the game in merit parties. Dual wielders are far better than 2 handers. But with the 2 hand change coming, things're going to be completely different.

So watching people argue over who the best job for dual wielding is, makes me laugh. It's like watching a bunch of endangered species arguing over who's hide is worth the most.

I want to know whatever it is you're having because unless you get a multiattack grip you're still not standing center stage with the 3 in the topic title. There's a reason 2 handers have needed these big updates, you're still not touching a competent monk or WAR with anything short of a relic though. Be happy you're getting your updates, just realize SE has long since become afraid to do anything drastic anymore.

[moguri]

I'm sorry if my definition of utility has a scope bigger than Dragon's Aery. Just because something isn't useful for HNM, doesn't mean it isn't useful for other things, like Assault, Salvage, small-manning mission BC's, etc. I truly believe Ridill on THF to not even be useful for those things, therefore it lacks utility completely, whereas my Mandau has been quite useful in what I do in the game, and so has utility.

Ridill on THF is useful for everything thing you listed post DA comment. With Homam and attack food, you can still use ridill on KS/BC/Assault/Mission/City Dynamis mobs/Salvage. You're hilarious.

[Priran]

I think the most interesting part of this topic is perhaps the fact that after this patch everything's going to change. MNK WAR NIN, best DDs in the game in merit parties. Dual wielders are far better than 2 handers. But with the 2 hand change coming, things're going to be completely different.

Like how it all changed with Hasso?

MNK is always going to be a top-tier DD because that's the only thing they can do. WAR has a selection of the best weapons and armor in the game. NIN can attack faster than anyone else except a MNK using Hundred Fists and can tank better than any other DD. None of this is going to change with this update.

I think people are (severely) overestimating how good these grips are going to be.

[moguri]

I think the most interesting part of this topic is perhaps the fact that after this patch everything's going to change. MNK WAR NIN, best DDs in the game in merit parties. Dual wielders are far better than 2 handers. But with the 2 hand change coming, things're going to be completely different.

So watching people argue over who the best job for dual wielding is, makes me laugh. It's like watching a bunch of endangered species arguing over who's hide is worth the most.

Here's a little lesson in special ed: Read the update.
Its giving a bonus to 2-handers on high defense mobs. EXP mobs are not high defense. Guess what else isn't high defense? Salvage/City dynamis/Limbus/Assault/BC/KS/etc. So yeah, you're wrong.

[Xno]

I think people are (severely) overestimating how good these grips are going to be.

and i think you underestimating what has been said in the annoucement, its not only grip , but 2H delay formula , and 2H dot affected by stats ( STR )

[Stolin]

I'm sorry if my definition of utility has a scope bigger than Dragon's Aery. Just because something isn't useful for HNM, doesn't mean it isn't useful for other things, like Assault, Salvage, small-manning mission BC's, etc. I truly believe Ridill on THF to not even be useful for those things, therefore it lacks utility completely, whereas my Mandau has been quite useful in what I do in the game, and so has utility.

Please don't delude yourself into believing Mandau is a utility item. Its a show off item for a TH whore job. There are jobs who can get the same damage results or better with 1/10 the time and resources you put into your relic weapon.

Utility would be having the right jobs leveled for the right situations.

[Xno]

i thought THF were "usefull" for hate control, and mandau help them doing it better no ?

[Ryko]

i thought THF were "usefull" for hate control, and mandau help them doing it better no ?

Yeah if your tanks need hate dumped onto them.
Do they?

[Archain]

GUANMODE v2.01b by Archain. This is shareware. If you enjoy this program, please donate $10 to show your appreciation.



YOU SHOULD SEE ME UTTERLY OWN THINGS WITH MY DONG.

IT'S A TWO HANDED WEAPON, SO I'M REALLY GLAD TEH GRIPZ R COMING OUT FOR IT. TWO HANDED ADJUSTMENTS WILL RLY HLP ME IN XP NOW BECUZ BEFORE IT WUZ JUST ME BLUDGEONING NMEs WITH MY COCK. THIS PATCH COMING OUT MONDAY WILL REALLY MAKE ME EXCITED (WHICH WILL MAKE MY DONG DO GREATER DMG!) BECUZ I WILL KILL FUTURE NMEs AND ACTUALLY HAVE THE GAME MAKE AN OLD EUROPEAN CHURCH BELL SOUND (ONE OF TEH DEEP ONES) WHEN I DONG KILL AN ENEMY. SINCE I AM HORRIBLY SKILLED AT DONG WIELDING, I HAVE AN O POSITIVE SKILL IN IT (WHICH IS MUHC HIGHER THAN A+, SO SCREW UR 304!11). I DON'T CARE ABOUT UR RIDILL BECUZ ALLZ I HAV TO DO IS 2HD AND DO A SIMPLE 360 TURN TO KILL EVERYTHING IN AOE RANGE. IT SPIKEZ TEH PARSE SO BADLY THAT PEOPLE WILL RITE TO SE AND SAY, "OMFG DONG IS TOO STRONG". YOU MAY NOT SEE DONG ON UR SKILL LIST, IT'S BECUZ U HAVEN"T OPENED TEH ADVANCED DONG SKILL BY LEVELLING CLUB FIRST. THE AWESOME THING ABOUT DONG IS THE FACT THAT U DON'T NEED TO BUY WEAPONZ FOR IT, SO IT SAVES A LOT OF GILZ AND INVENTORY SPACE.

IT'S A GOOD THING THAT THE QUESTED WS FOR DONG IS DEATH BLOSSOM, I'VE BEEN REALLY TRYING TO LEVEL MY BREAKDANCING SKILL WHILE LISTENING TO FULLY JACKED UP SEA MUSIC FOR THE LAST YEAR. I HAVE THE CARDBOARD, I'M AREADY SET. UR GOING TO SAY THAT ANYONE U PARTY WITH IS A GIMP AND TRY TO CITE REASONS AND AN ACC DEFICIENCY. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THAT EVERYONE IS A GIMP WHEN COMPARED TO DONG BLUDGEONING.



REMEMBER THE CHURCH BELL SOUND (PLZ GIVE AN ICON).

ANNIHILATE!

DESTROY!

SHRED!



DONG.

THANK YOU.

Dong is not utility, it is a way of life.

[Ryko]

I lol'd

[Xno]

When i pull hate from Fafnir yes >.>

[Ryko]

When i pull hate from Fafnir yes >.>

Well I'd say get better tanks but it's fafnir, my samurai with a hagun can pull hate on that thing.

[Eaglestrike]

I'm sorry if my definition of utility has a scope bigger than Dragon's Aery. Just because something isn't useful for HNM, doesn't mean it isn't useful for other things, like Assault, Salvage, small-manning mission BC's, etc. I truly believe Ridill on THF to not even be useful for those things, therefore it lacks utility completely, whereas my Mandau has been quite useful in what I do in the game, and so has utility.

Please don't delude yourself into believing Mandau is a utility item. Its a show off item for a TH whore job. There are jobs who can get the same damage results or better with 1/10 the time and resources you put into your relic weapon.

Utility would be having the right jobs leveled for the right situations.

Funny how people can get the same damage results or better with 1/10th the time and resources, but I've outparsed a Ridill war with more hecatomb (I only have two pieces of hecatomb uncursed, just fyi) on mobs that aren't piercing weak. My gear is far from complete, all I really have is Mandau and Homam, but I haven't been outparsed in a very long time. Every other DD I merit with must really not try if what you say is true. I'm not saying I'm the best in the world or anything, but your idea that someone can match or beat me in damage with far less work/gear is completely untrue.

Ridill on THF is useful for everything thing you listed post DA comment. With Homam and attack food, you can still use ridill on KS/BC/Assault/Mission/City Dynamis mobs/Salvage. You're hilarious.

I thought I already explained why Ridill would still be weaker than another dagger in those situations, therefore it isn't useful. Unless camping Krueztet is now harder than Fafnir? Just because Ridill thf "can work" in some situations doesn't mean it isn't anything more than forcibly using your e-peen item, nor is it better than your other options.

You're seriously prepared to make the contention that a thf with a ridill wouldn't outdo a thf with 2 daggers, having never owned one. I'm not saying "zomg give a THF a ridill immediately", far from it, but I do like how one can immediately throw a blanket statement...

Just like how you insult the ability of Mandau thieves, when not being a Mandau thief? Do you not see how stupid that argument is?

[Ryko]

I'm sorry if my definition of utility has a scope bigger than Dragon's Aery. Just because something isn't useful for HNM, doesn't mean it isn't useful for other things, like Assault, Salvage, small-manning mission BC's, etc. I truly believe Ridill on THF to not even be useful for those things, therefore it lacks utility completely, whereas my Mandau has been quite useful in what I do in the game, and so has utility.

Please don't delude yourself into believing Mandau is a utility item. Its a show off item for a TH whore job. There are jobs who can get the same damage results or better with 1/10 the time and resources you put into your relic weapon.

Utility would be having the right jobs leveled for the right situations.

Funny how people can get the same damage results or better with 1/10th the time and resources, but I've outparsed a Ridill war with more hecatomb (I only have two pieces of hecatomb uncursed, just fyi) on mobs that aren't piercing weak.

[/quote]

That you not more than 1 topic ago regarding this discussion admitted were trashy.

Every other DD I merit with must really not try if what you say is true.

Guess so :/

[quote:cf707]Ridill on THF is useful for everything thing you listed post DA comment. With Homam and attack food, you can still use ridill on KS/BC/Assault/Mission/City Dynamis mobs/Salvage. You're hilarious.

I thought I already explained why Ridill would still be weaker than another dagger in those situations, therefore it isn't useful. Unless camping Krueztet is now harder than Fafnir? Just because Ridill thf "can work" in some situations doesn't mean it isn't anything more than forcibly using your e-peen item, nor is it better than your other options.[/quote:cf707]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either HNMs aren't everything or they're the standard you're going to live by. A Ridill thief works in every single last one of those situations outside of HNMs that you mentioned, whereas a horn (which is what he mentioned at first when you started talking about utility) would be better off in every single last one of those situations than your knife.

[quote:cf707]You're seriously prepared to make the contention that a thf with a ridill wouldn't outdo a thf with 2 daggers, having never owned one. I'm not saying "zomg give a THF a ridill immediately", far from it, but I do like how one can immediately throw a blanket statement...

Just like how you insult the ability of Mandau thieves, when not being a Mandau thief? Do you not see how stupid that argument is?[/quote:cf707]

It's not equivalent at all, as I never once questioned a mandau's damage output, but rather the utility (remember, your word) as opposed to a horn or god forbid a shield. You like hopping the fence when the one side isn't momentarily convenient.