Ridill vs Mandau vs MNK/WAR

[Naygor]

Anyone else find it ironic he's complaining about tp spam on colibri with war/nin yet wants to come on mnk/war, which is a helluva lot more annoying if you're talking about ws damage. If you're looking at it from the point of view of getting your food eaten, you're gonna pull hate a lot either way on mnk/war and it's not that hard to afford mithkabobs. Sounds like a bunch of epeen crap to me.

Congratulations, once again you prove how little you know and how much of an idiot you are. MNKs give less TP per damage then anyone(other then BLMs.

Yeah, it couldn't have been that my point was tp spam on birds is irrelevant because the healing is so ridiculously light and it's not that hard to buy some stacks of mithkabobs. Thanks for pointing out the obvious as though it were relevant to the conversation, idiot.

Damn you are stupid. You missed the entire point of his rant. Not to mention you missed the point that Birds don't get off more then 1-2 moves with 3 MNK/WAR and they get off 4-5 moves with WAR/NINs. I have both jobs, no it's not a big deal and I generally enjoy WAR more but you still don't have a fucking clue about anything. MNKs don't take a shitton of damage like everyone thinks. MNKs were doing TPburns long before anyone else.

Mages are fcking sissies now usually anyways.

And he never said he had 3 mnk/wars in his party genius. The only thing he did say about his parties was that he doesn't wanna party with ridill wars and takes a mandau thf along with him sometimes. The point of his thread as far as I can tell, was that he found using multiple foods in a fight annoying. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that maybe you shouldn't sub war on mnk or just shut the **** up because it's mithkabobs are dirt cheap anyway. No one's disputing mnk/war does amazing damage, but I am saying that complaining about getting hit with tp moves on mnk/war (and yes I know snatch morsel goes through shadows) is retarded since mnk/war is not worth it unless you're doing a mnkburn (which was never explicitly stated by the OP). Shut up, sit down, and get off your high horse. No one cares about how great a merit monkey you are.

[Naygor]

Damn you are stupid. You missed the entire point of his rant. Not to mention you missed the point that Birds don't get off more then 1-2 moves with 3 MNK/WAR and they get off 4-5 moves with WAR/NINs. I have both jobs, no it's not a big deal and I generally enjoy WAR more but you still don't have a fucking clue about anything. MNKs don't take a shitton of damage like everyone thinks. MNKs were doing TPburns long before anyone else.

Mages are fcking sissies now usually anyways.

Bolded the important part...lol. Biggest proof of this was when I tried making a monkburn in KRT one time, just to do it...the BRD for some reason forgot what pulling was, didn't finale BLM skeles, no one Banish'd ghosts...Pretty sure I died two times from pure ignorance -.-;

The only reason I despise ToAU was because it made 90% of all mages retarded when it came to stressing situations. Not that KRT parties are really stressing...but apparently, it was.

Well, if you met 1 or 2 stupid mages in a party once, clearly all of them are dumb. Should I even bother to mention the amount of times I've been in a meripo with wars that don't voke, melees that like to hold tp on birds, melees that burn their ws on the punk and then have nothing ready for the skoffin/lurker, and people thinking it's cool to unlock their trial weapon? It works both ways.

[Judai]

You do realize this thread was because of the arguement in another and therefore, if you didn't read the other and realize the type of parties he makes and attempt to argue ignorance you look like an idiot, right? (damn that's a hell of a run-on sentence.)

Also, if he doesn't merit with WARs and only occasionally brings a Mandau THF, what do you think he merits with? Safe to assume other MNK/WARs or maybe.. DRGs? Seriously, why do you bother to try? Before you call people idiots and bash, read the background info. They should have taught you that in Princeton.

[Naygor]

Drg isn't that bad on colibri. Rng isn't. Might have a nin. Might have a drk. Oh crap, that's a lot of other jobs I just listed and I'm pretty sure there are other ones I could've listed too. Try removing that stick outta your ass next time. I make a simple statement that complaining about tp spam on birds is dumb, and you come in here at the drop of a hat with your shit for crap attitude.

[Judai]

I wasn't the only one to call you and idiot and say you were wrong with your statement.

[Ryko]

I wasn't the only one to call you and idiot and say you were wrong with your statement.

It's funny how you're both arguing totally different points but ran in guns blazing missing eachother the whole time. Naygor was saying it's ironic that someone would complain about WS damage then use a MNK/WAR that typically has the defense of a paper bag and no way to mitigate it once they are hit with a flurry. Somehow things like snatch morsel and what not got thrown into it and to my knowledge it doesn't do damage so I don't really get the relevance of bringing it up against a statement about WS damage.

20 bucks says that someone is going to respond to this thinking that I don't get the concept of TP in vs TP out and how WS damage is a lot less of a worry if you only see 1 or 2 WSes a fight as opposed to the 3 or 4 you might see with other DD's assuming theyre killing slow which really isn't the case in the situations we're talking about here

[aurik]

mnk/war fucking destroys...for all of 50 seconds then dies

If you've got a party with more healing than normal, /war is actually decently good. I usually just sub nin because it's easier though.

[Priran]

Who the fuck converts damage in the perspective of your own output?

Why the fuck wouldn't you? It's a comparison of two numbers, bringing in extra variables on something as unreliable as a parse is moronic.

[Nirokun!]

yeah, that bothers me when ppl up themselves on the parser burning a WS on a wyvern >_> lol

[moguri]

and what about sam with amano , is it better than top geared ridill war ?

I had a party with a top geared ridill war and a top geared monk with a SAM/AMANO and the SAM did waaaay too much damage. I mean they can dish out damage but i dont wanna heal them all day.

SAM/WAR Amano fucking destroys. From what I recall, Ruke outparsed me by a good 3-4%, me being a ridll war w/ capped combat/war merits + haub+1, 19%, and such. And you know what? He keeps Seigan up 90% of the time. Than again, it is Ruke?

The problem with the "SAM/WAR fucking destroys" thing is that they are subbing war. Why aren't they subbing NIN? Because /nin fucking sucks and brings nothing to the table. However, for some reason wars are expected to /nin. How many attack rounds are wasted casting ni/ichi? Comparing that to a SAM/WAR or a mandau THF/WAR just isn't a fair comparison, as they do no tanking and basically just constant attack.

Let the WAR/DRG or WAR/(insert useful sub) w/ Ridill parse against the SAM/WAR and mandau THF/WAR and see how close the parses are then.

[divisortheory]

Let the WAR/DRG or WAR/(insert useful sub) w/ Ridill parse against the SAM/WAR and mandau THF/WAR and see how close the parses are then.

I'd be interested in trying this sometime provided there was enough healing, even if it involved an outside healing party just so that the parse was on more fair terms. For the record though THF is probably better off as /NIN as long as they have a suppa.

[archibaldcrane]

However, for some reason wars are expected to /nin.

God forbid you get a 20% delay reduction and are able to fully utilize both your best weapon and your best WS.

[Ryko]

However, for some reason wars are expected to /nin.

God forbid you get a 20% delay reduction and are able to fully utilize both your best weapon and your best WS.

Not what he was getting at, the offensive bonuses to WAR/NIN are definitely there and it's silly to argue against it however his point was it's always a given that the WAR is going to be tanking and like it or not the only reason a good war/nin falls behind is because theyre spending 10-20% of the fight's duration casting shadows.

[Crosis]

I know this is a MNK/WAR debate, but speaking of subbing DRG I did for MNK at the colibri camp just for fun a couple months ago. Wore Raven Beret for the -8 enmity and to make up for the haste loss from Turban you can wear Wyvern Earring. DRG sub alone, which gives Attack and Acc trait, makes up for whatever you'd have on that ear and then some anyway. And you get two jumps.

I popped off a few 300+ jumps and high jumps, I think I had a low 400 once even, throughout the fights and didn't need more then a couple cures in two hours. Obviously this only works when you have vokers in party, but it was nice change of pace and hardly any food was eaten!

[Demosthenes11]

A mnk/war with novia is nice too since not much for earrings anyways. nin mnk war brd brd rdm is only time I can handle mnk/war really if I want to push 20k an hour

[Spider-Dan]

mnk/war fucking destroys...for all of 50 seconds then dies

If you've got a party with more healing than normal, /war is actually decently good.

I liked the money match on KI where they had a MNK/WAR with outside healing voking to get extra damage from counters/extra TP from getting hit.

Good times.

[Bastilla]

When i merit with LS we usally have a WHM 75 dualboxed out of pty for more healing. So MNKs sub WAR and only thing i cast as WAR is Ni: when shadows down just spam cures and wait till Ni is back up again. <^> ichi!

[Xno]

the only combo that can go all out + bloodtanking without beeing an MP sponge is drk/sam hasso 100% of the time + cata spam, you need to have 2 brd for draining enough and beeing autonome

[Ravenlokk]

MNK/WARx3 RDM63, BRD, WHM(mnk was 2boxing whm in the PT)

still got chain 100+, no downtime, rdm wasnt converting, whm didnt need devotion. Maybe u guys just suck

[RKenshin]

and what about sam with amano , is it better than top geared ridill war ?

I opened up this thread and went back to read the previous thread to see what I missed... Then came back here with the intent of making a post asking what other people's experiences have been with GK SAMs. I really haven't heard about anyone else's results at all, and considering how powerful it would seem to be in my own tests/parses I'm rather astonished I don't hear more about it... It's mostly just Spha/Dest MNK/WAR v Rid WAR/NIN with some twists and other jobs involved.

So yeah, what are other people's experiences with it so far?

SAM/WAR Amano fucking destroys. From what I recall, Ruke outparsed me by a good 3-4%, me being a ridll war w/ capped combat/war merits + haub+1, 19%, and such. And you know what? He keeps Seigan up 90% of the time. Than again, it is Ruke?

I remember the PT but not sure if I saved the parse (or even had the parser on?).

I don't remember the parse %s from it either way, but to address another poster on the topic I wouldn't use that parse as a basis for GK's potential. I remember that PT mostly because a friend was over and wanted to watch (he thought Zanzabar was the best Galka name lol), and ended up being distracted by his comments most of the PT. But not to brag at all, to provide a reason for my point I've out-parsed just about 100% fully equiped/meritted Relic/Destroyer MNK/WARs and Rid WAR/NINs by as much as 4-7%, so I'm pretty sure that either the margin was bigger or I just wasn't paying enough attention.

Probably beating a dead horse here, and I'm in no way saying Amano SAM is gimped 1 bit, but they can skew the parser by at least 2-3% because a WS killing a mob will deal full damage, and war/mnk/nin etc lose a few hit's... yeah I know it's usually not wise to WS a mob at 5-10%, but when 2 people WS at once at 60%, if the MNK or WAR's WS went after the SAM and kills it with like 9-10 TP return, they lost hits which means lost damage and a skewed parser in favor of SAM, same thing if he were to have had killing blow instead.

This was actually brought up when I first got relic and I thought it was kind of silly. If you wanted to be completely fair about that idea then you'd have to include the fact that the mob is probably being overkilled by some number 99.99% of the time. And, jobs that have a high frequency of swings (ie, MNKs, WARs, THFs, NINs) have a much higher chance of landing that killing blow that usually overkills the mob over jobs that have a lower frequency of swings (all 2h weapon users). Over the course of a PT WARs and MNKs get far more overkill damage from melee swings than any 2h user (they attack around 2x as often, and the best ones will do anywhere from ~200-600 per attack round not counting crit chances, for a much higher chance of landing the killing blow in a fight), and I'm sure that'd add up to be a significant amount at the end of a PT as well.

But as far as the whole WS overkill thing goes I don't feel it happens often enough to justify any reasonable change in real output, especially considering the previous paragraph. Occasionally I'll get screwed or mess up and overkill a mob, but I really doubt anyone tries to or knowingly will unless the chain is at stake. Especially for me since I strongly prefer to WS at the start of the fight with another mob so I can just tank it out (I prefer having hate for a few different reasons, including not having to spin around all over the place to land Overwhelm). Which is why I usually voke at the start of fights anyway, and use Seigan 100% of the time unless MP isn't a problem.

The problem with the "SAM/WAR fucking destroys" thing is that they are subbing war. Why aren't they subbing NIN? Because /nin fucking sucks and brings nothing to the table. However, for some reason wars are expected to /nin. How many attack rounds are wasted casting ni/ichi? Comparing that to a SAM/WAR or a mandau THF/WAR just isn't a fair comparison, as they do no tanking and basically just constant attack.

Let the WAR/DRG or WAR/(insert useful sub) w/ Ridill parse against the SAM/WAR and mandau THF/WAR and see how close the parses are then.

Well to be completely fair and honest, I think that in the situations I've been it's just about even regardless of having to cast shadows. Keeping Seigan up full time I lose 10% haste, 10 acc, and 10 STR for my TP gain and WS damage, along with a good bit of damage lost from the JA spam combined with the occasional swaps into defense gear (which has almost no DD stats whatsoever). Typically I also do the majority of the tanking so... I think it pretty close to evens out? Or at least, the difference in the end is rather neglible. Especially considering most NINs and /NINs forget how to cast Ichi when playing a DD.

Also, having played WAR/DRG with Rid in a few PTs (with a PL to keep me alive ), I can feel confident when I say it doesn't do as good as it would seem. IIRC my WAR/NIN still put up about the same damage (if not more?). I definitely remember being disappointed by its potential as I leveled /DRG almost exclusively for trying that.

But, regardless, I have also PTed against a (decked/etc) WAR/NIN that tried to avoid recasting shadows when needed during fights to help up output (since we had a PL anyway). Results were still basically the same.