Ridill vs Mandau vs MNK/WAR

[RKenshin]

MNK/WARx3 RDM63, BRD, WHM(mnk was 2boxing whm in the PT)

still got chain 100+, no downtime, rdm wasnt converting, whm didnt need devotion. Maybe u guys just suck

I usually MNK/WAR on MNK for exp PTs and such and yeah... I think I have to agree that as long as the mob dies fast, it really isn't as much of an MP sponge (if at all) as people are building it up to be. Or at worst it's definitely at least managable for Colibri PTs with above average mages. However I don't think it'd work too well (if at all) anywhere outside of that camp.

Heck my MNK static to 75 was 3 MNK/WARs, a COR, a pickup BRD, and either a second BRD or a random DD as last. For the majority of the leveling we had a RDM+WHM out PT that could handle us killing non-stop and moving constantly as 2 boxed characters. Towards the end we upgraded to RDM+WHM+BRD healing but more for luxury than necessity.

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

Oh shit, I meant to say 19% haste lol (some people might have assumed I parsed 19%?).

And you're damn fucking right, Zanzabar IS the greatest Galka and my comments through most exp parties provide exceptional entertainment!

[Ravenlokk]

MNK/WARx3 RDM63, BRD, WHM(mnk was 2boxing whm in the PT)

still got chain 100+, no downtime, rdm wasnt converting, whm didnt need devotion. Maybe u guys just suck

I usually MNK/WAR on MNK for exp PTs and such and yeah... I think I have to agree that as long as the mob dies fast, it really isn't as much of an MP sponge (if at all) as people are building it up to be. Or at worst it's definitely at least managable for Colibri PTs with above average mages. However I don't think it'd work too well (if at all) anywhere outside of that camp.
...

Yea i only use that setup on colibri, if we're doing mamools i'll usually bring a ninja in place of the 3rd mnk (A+ nin, not a pickup nin) and have them first voke, and ill just engage and follow their lead so i don't pull hate too much. It usually works well on mamools without being too much of an mp sponge.

Ruke you should go out tour lol, migrate servers just to show people the real power of Amo XD. Hell, i'll pay your $50 return trip lol.

I tried to build my sam around your model- but being taru kinda hurt my max dmg potential . I was going to do relic GKT too (still have attestation and havent submitted currency lol) but opted for shield since my LS needs it more .

[RKenshin]

I still wish they'd make some kind of system where you could enter into instanced exp areas... A good sized area packed with fast-repopping mobs that all belong to your PT. With a little more work into that idea I think they could integrate a system so that you could do this with people from other servers too! Possibly through the unpopular linkshell community website? Which would both make it more popular and just plain be amazing.

I'm sure it's possible somehow... But too bad it'd probably never happen either way.

[Zanz L. Barre The 3rd]

No, he's OURS!

[Xno]

still wish they'd make some kind of system where you could enter into instanced exp areas... A good sized area packed with fast-repopping mobs that all belong to your PT. With a little more work into that idea I think they could integrate a system so that you could do this with people from other servers too! Possibly through the unpopular linkshell community website? Which would both make it more popular and just plain be amazing.

I'm sure it's possible somehow... But too bad it'd probably never happen either way.

Or an instanced area with 2 pt , the pt who kills the most mobs in 1h win.

It wouldnt be a mano vs mano on a parser but a team against a team, puller would be as important as melee and we wouldnt speak about mnk/War in exp pt since no outside healing ( cheat ? ), maybe some old setup would come back like : a tank (expl :war/nin) , a /war ( expl :mnk/war ) , a mandau thf to build up tank hate, or 3 war/nin ~~

I dont think it would be too hard to implement...

[Shamaya]

Mnk/war with outside cures, or with the right setup
All three are great DD's. The first thing I was going to mention about Mnk/War was that it won't work out easily unless they can work their way out of dying or being a crazy MP sponge and having to hold back, would be either a PT that kills amazingly fast (ie 3 good Mnk/war, or a party with a combo of only Ridill, Mandau, Mnk/war, and other comparably good DD's), or outside cures. I wanted to bring up that point, but I see it's been brought up already. Without outside curing, or a party that can kill mobs very fast (and by very fast I mean insanely fast), a very good Mnk/war will have to hold back,and if they don't, they will die, thus lowering their parse and the exp.
Mnk/war without the above
If neither of two conditions exist (they may or may not), I would say that a Mnk going /war parses about the same as /nin. This is from my own personal experience, if my experience is worth a salt here (one of my first times posting here). I merit a whole lot, and with lots of good DD's and interesting setups, and am parsing the game almost 100% of the time, and the above is what my experience shows me.

In this latter case, Mnk/war's parse close to Mnk/nin's and generally (generally) tend to get outparsed by very good Wars, Ridill Wars, and other very good DD's (mandau, etc).

Mandau Thieves
I don't have a mandau, but I will speak from general experience since Thf is my main and my passion. It takes a lot to parse well as thief. Not only can we generally take advantage of more gearsets and swaps than other DD's, but our DD'ing is technical and takes experience to master, especially in no-tank PT's. I read some people mentioning mandau thieves using /war, and others mentioning tanks/first-vokes as a necessity, but these things aren't true. Good thieves and mandau thieves alike gain huge advantages by subbing nin over war. We can most certainly be MP-sponges as /war, and can die very fast given certain situations (ever try berserked sneak+WS'ing a skoffin near the start of the fight, or even a mamool?). Those WS's do huge damage, and unless thf/war has outside curing, or parties that kill in 5-10 seconds, the results of subbing war can turn out quite bad for us. On the subject of needing a tank: thieves don't. The job requires careful attention to the hate queue (or TP party) in order to consistently land sneak attacks and sneak+WS's effectively, and even if thf suffers without a tank or a first voke, the job remains more than viable. Trick+ws's aren't a problem with good no-tank parties, because with diligence, the mob will be dead right after the WS. If its near the start of the fight, thf can always solo trick, and then solo WS.

A fully-decked, skilled thf is no joke. And a mandau thf is great. If we're talking mandau thf at bird camp, it's going to take a lot to outparse them even in a no-tank, no-voke pt. It's always fair to adjust the parse numbers at the end of the PT to account for piercing bonuses, but in raw damage numbers, it takes a lot to compete. Someone mentioned earlier that Sam/War parses are skewed because of WS's. This is also true of Mandau thieves, since Mercy Stroke is a 1-hit WS.

Ridill War
Not too much needs to be said. Ridill war/nin needs no special conditions to be an awesome DD. It's viable in virtually every camp and in virtually every setup. Ridill war/nin has a good chance of outparsing mnk/war and mandau thieves in circumstances where mnk/war and thf have trouble being most effective (ie mnk/war in parties that don't kill fast enough, or don't have those alt accounts or friends doing outside cures, and ie mandau thf in a non-piercing camp, in a pt that doesn't have a tank or, even worse for thf, a first voke).

My conclusion:I hope not to appear cocky since I'm new here, and since I'm humble in that I have no mandau, ridill, or black belt, but: I think Ridill/war is the most reliable DD, because it functions great in many setups and in all camps, and it has a good chance of outdamaging good mnk/wars and mandau thf's in the right situations, especially if this ridill war is merit-capped, fully-decked, and not a retarded player. Mandau thf is, imho, king of bird camp (which imo is the best camp in the game, especially if you're there during the later hours, or if you camp near the ledge and have a bard on lower level pulling, and one on upper level pulling, and a good RDM to back them up and help wake birds with Dia III when necessary), and is especially effective in a PT that has a first voke (that's the important thing, as opposed to having a tank). In other camps, mandau thf can be good competition, but will suffer if there is no first voke and the mob doesn't stop spinning. Mnk/war in pt's that kill with uncanny speed is amazing, and with outside cures a great mnk/war is absolutely insane. I, for one, would like to see Aurik (who's on my server) exp as mnk/war with outside cures. If the mnk/war first vokes with counterstance, this brings up their parse noticably, and it isn't quite a problem with outside cures either. Right now I think mnk/war under those conditions could be the top DD, even at bird camp.

Out of personal experience, I've never been outdamaged by a ridill war at bird camp, and I've partied so far against 4-5 at bird camp. The best of them was Jpeg (E body, Dusk+1's, just about everything you need), and he came very close, but I don't even have homam yet much less mandau (whereas I have almost everything I would ever want, otherwise). I've only ever been outdamaged by 3 dd's there: mandau thf (Drevni) and 2 BB mnk/war's (Demonhunter, and Jemond), both of which brought their own dual-boxed outside cures/hastes (DH first-voked voluntarily, and coutnerstance tanked. Jemond didn't). So it's not just all theory, these kinds of comparisons can be tested and parsed from party to party, even though playing skill/style and gear varies greatly from player to player.

I dont party with lazy bards and expect them to sub a mage job and cure a bit, since lullaby is sort of moot when you can countertank adds for higher DPS

/whm is always nice when viable, but at bird camp /nin is really generally the best bard sub. The reduced damage that you take by blinking will out-class the damage that you would have cured by going /whm. And at birds with a decent rdm healer, addition mp isn't too necessary. And at birds, you don't need erase, etc, that you'd get from /whm. Having /whm in two bard parties is more viable than one bard parties (sue me, but I'm a big fan of one bard parties when pulling isn't a huge issue), where one bard can sub /whm and the other can sub /nin, with the /nin being the main-puller. The biggest benefit of brd/whm at bird camp is being able to wake the rdm if he/she is slept. /whm is nice, but going /nin certainly doesn't mean that a bard is lazy. And I see the point about having brd/whm's in 3 mnk/war pt's, but those pt's by and large are the exception, not the rule.

mnk/war fucking destroys...for all of 50 seconds then dies

I'm glad to hear a mnk that can actually admit that, especially coming from the best mnk on my server. That's the whole krux of the mnk/war vs /nin debate, but as some have mentioned here, special conditions can make /war viable.

long as you macro your meat mithkabob it's tolerable.

Mmm, that may not be a bad idea =P

On a final note, you don't have to be any of those DD's to be an awesome DD, much less have an awesome party. Other great DD's are out there, such as relic sam and drk, and I'm sure there are others. Even pt's without any of those awesome dd's can have an awesome party. Last week I made 17k/hr in nyzul (pulling against one pt, albeit poor) with the following setup: Brd/nin,Brd/whm,drg/whm,ridill war/nin,thf/nin(me),blu/nin. A very good Drg such as ours was is a viable if not great DD in nyzul, and having them go /whm is awesome to behold. Thf/nin can pull crazy dps there without a mandau. Blu/nin is, imo, underlooked because the endgame blu are undergeared, undermeritted, or underskilled for exp. I'm not sure blu is viable for great dd'ing unless they have full homam, simply because it benefits them dd-wise more than it does for any other class that can use it (and its so good). This blu/nin had perdu/demon, full homam, and all the goodies.

So don't be afraid to test new waters. Lots of burn setups work well, and its always fun to try new ones (for me at least). Go for that 2 mandau, mnk/war pt, that 3 mnk/war pt. Try out drg/whm, or be creative and come up with something else seldom done.

[Sidanoir]

I hope people realize that....

Ridill WAR is pretty shitty if the user is a retard...perfect example yesterday...picked up a 6th (non LS) for a merit party...did Mamools near Colibri....
This WAR used WAR AF1 feet......AF2 hands...warwolf belt...no brutal (fowling earring)...FULL TIME.....
He lost by 3% to a MNK/NIN (THIS MONK DOES NOT HAVE BLACK BELT EITHER) (of total damage)....and 14% to the other Ridill WAR.....indeed was sad...

Guy was named Koco from some Dreams LS...never seen them before.....then I saw like 4 other dreams people...I think Ryne is the leader? Must have migrated to Leviathan..from where I don't know....

MNK/WAR is easily on par with Ridill WAR/NIN (within 1-2% of total damage).....assuming both have the best in gear and are smart....

SAM/WAR using hasso with amano....is by far the best DD I have ever seen...

Ive never partied with a Mandau THF....but, I don't think it would even come close to either of the 3 above......assuming again...best gear + brains...

So in conclusion..imho and my experience..

1) SAM/WAR amano..
2) WAR/NIN ridill
3) MNK/WAR
4) Mandau THF (Guess....this is pure speculation )

By the way ruke..have you noticed really shitty damage on Kaiten if your low on attack...ie no berserk and no meat say at colibri?..difference is pretty crazy vs zerked and food ( like more than I would expect....)..

Kiaten also seems pretty terrible in my experience vs high defense mobs..like Ultima...Fafnir...wonder if you saw same things...

[Ryko]

Ridill WAR is pretty shitty if the user is a retard...

Anything's pretty shitty if the user's a retard, and while even a relic doesn't mean the person who owns it isn't a moron, youll generally run into less people with one who genuinely ignored their gear and effort in the job otherwise just because there's less of them around. The strongest colibri DD I've seen is a yoichi soboro SAM/WAR, but there's literally less than one of those on each server (and ours isn't even active) so it's not even pragmatic to mention for the most part.

[Spider-Dan]

Ruke, how does your Kraken RNG compare to your relic SAM? Or have you retired RNG?

[alphacat]

Quite frankly, in merit situation, I would rather take a mandau thf or a BB mnk over ridill war. Granted, all three have their advantages, but ridill war simply feeds the mob too much tp. On bird camp, a good thf not only has the piercing advantage, he also has the ability to use food, and not have his tp taken. Of course, all three are pretty damn good, but when it comes down to it, I'd pick ridill war last.

[Taint]

A ton comes down to the players skill. But I agree with a few of the post that says a good WAR will work good most anywhere and has enough versatility to play multiple roles in a party. Feeding a mob TP should not be a big concern, if its a good XP party the mob won't have time to spam anything.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned a Relic DRK/SAM in a 2brd pty. Its WS spam with Catatrophe adding haste and drain for 400-500 per WS. With the right merits you are looking at ~70% delay reduction with ~85% every 4minutes during LR and the ability to self Darkness and if lucky self Double Darkness.

[Sidanoir]

Quite frankly, in merit situation, I would rather take a mandau thf or a BB mnk over ridill war. Granted, all three have their advantages, but ridill war simply feeds the mob too much tp. On bird camp, a good thf not only has the piercing advantage, he also has the ability to use food, and not have his tp taken. Of course, all three are pretty damn good, but when it comes down to it, I'd pick ridill war last.

Why are people so concerned with mob TP in a merit party? Its not an HNM.....
Having been a melee and a RDM in merit parties at various camps....I can tell you that I was never worried about TP used by mob...maybe other people are different? Only mob that has scary TP is skoffins.....mamools have 1 nasty WS....but phalanx II+ utsusemi + protect makes it manageable....

The big bad colibri isn't going to wipe the party cause of TP...nor slow experience down....
Colibri have 1 TP move that does damage.....

Anyone can eat food at colibri it just costs gil when eaten, thief doesn't have an advantage there...and if they are good and separating sneak/trick for WS....inevitably they would get hate with a big SA ws...

[OctavoGilgamesh]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned a Relic DRK/SAM in a 2brd pty. Its WS spam with Catatrophe adding haste and drain for 400-500 per WS. With the right merits you are looking at ~70% delay reduction with ~85% every 4minutes during LR and the ability to self Darkness and if lucky self Double Darkness.

never seen a drk/sam apocalypse in action ?

kinda like mnk/war but i heal myself

Page 1, granted Xno didn't specifically mention 2 brd.

[aurik]

In this latter case, Mnk/war's parse close to Mnk/nin's and generally (generally) tend to get outparsed by very good Wars, Ridill Wars, and other very good DD's (mandau, etc).

mnk/war parses a really good amount more than mnk/nin. Double attack, attack boost, berserk, and no downtime casting shadows increases damage a great deal.

Saying what I've said for a long time:
mnk/war > ridill/nin > mnk/nin

[Sidanoir]

In this latter case, Mnk/war's parse close to Mnk/nin's and generally (generally) tend to get outparsed by very good Wars, Ridill Wars, and other very good DD's (mandau, etc).

mnk/war parses a really good amount more than mnk/nin. Double attack, attack boost, berserk, and no downtime casting shadows increases damage a great deal.

Saying what I've said for a long time:
mnk/war > ridill/nin > mnk/nin

What margin do you beat ridill wars by as mnk/war?

[Lynsy]

I really must say, as a WHM the amount of curing a MNK/WAR needs is highly overrated. Though, if you have a RDM for a healer I wouldn't necessarily recommend it. But as a WHM, (even in 4x DD, BRD, WHM set up) I don't generally have problems with MNK/WARs (at least if they're decent). In most instances, I find WAR/NINs (With or without Ridills) more tedious to cure than most other jobs. I may have a slightly different perspective (I duoed most of WHM 70-75 and about half of my merit points with MNK/WAR) since I know the roll of healing MNK/WARs rather intimately, but I think it is one of the easiest and most fun jobs to work with.

That being said, it really depends on the camp and party set up. MNK/WARs usually shy away from MMJ North Camp (Skoffins make MNKs scurred). In general, I like 3xMNK/WAR, BRD, COR or BRD, WHM or 4xDD/NIN, BRD WHM ****Side noteOr SMN On Colibri. Seriously guys, take non-retarded SMNs to Colibri camp. Predator Claws destroys them and, when used only to keep chain if a pull was too long or the like, helps out tremendously. Even as only person with cure spells and 1 MNK around /WAR, I swear I could fall asleep there on WHM.)**** 4MNK/WAR, BRD Healer is usually not advisable if for no other reason than things will die so fast that no camp can keep up repops and at best would require so much camp movement that the healer would not be able to rest.

One of the things that makes MNK so overpowered, if you will, is that increasing their offensive capacity in many ways increases their defensive capacity. This is the exact opposite for most other jobs. With WARs, you increase their accuracy and you decrease their already shitty evasion (hi2uaggressor). With MNKs, you increase their accuracy and you increase their rater of blocked hits and doubly increase damage output (yaycounters). In this sense, Focus is both an offensive and a defensive ability. MNKs that don't use counterstance should be shot. (Seriously. To those MNKs out there that go "Counterstance means I get hit too hard!" I say to you "Die. Slowly. Painfully. And not in my party.")

Also, a note to WAR/NINs. If your last shadow on Ni is already gone, do us both a favor and stop trying to cast Ichi. We all know you're just going to get interupted. Just hit the damn monster and recast Ni when it's up.

[Sidanoir]

Also, a note to WAR/NINs. If your last shadow on Ni is already gone, do us both a favor and stop trying to cast Ichi. We all know you're just going to get interupted. Just hit the damn monster and recast Ni when it's up.

What can be said people are lazy, and don't want any work as a mage in a party?

And lol @ getting interrupted casting ichi on a mob that has elegy on it....cause your bards do pull with and land elegy...right?

[Xno]

'm surprised nobody mentioned a Relic DRK/SAM in a 2brd pty. Its WS spam with Catatrophe adding haste and drain for 400-500 per WS. With the right merits you are looking at ~70% delay reduction with ~85% every 4minutes during LR and the ability to self Darkness and if lucky self Double Darkness.

with the best gear its more like 77% delay reduction ( 118 delay) and 92% ( 41 delay ) every 4min10

im 4% away from max haste and i calculated 4% would give me a 20% boost in dmg output , i already beat good ridill war ( never fought against a speed belt dusk glove+1 ridill etc... war though )

[SamanosukeShiva]

you reactivate ur ID yet LoH? I'm waiting to whoop some mandau THF's ass