Question for Atheists/Agnostics with Kids

[Intense]

You dont know the truly people in these forums, and they dont know you. I think its highly unreasonable to assume you can debate about something as close to peoples hearts as their beliefs without expecting some sort of backlash, especially since you guys dont know each other. Like I mentioned before, its a personal thing.

[Ivve]

Im of the opinion that its not my job to try to convert people to my religious/non-religious ideals. Its a personal subject and not for me to tell anyone how or what they should or shouldnt believe. I dont want that responsibility.

I dont think I would consider a debate on specific aspects of any specific religion and their historic/physical foundations to be a "conversion" tactic. I enjoy to debate religion with people, because typically, after you filter out all the banter, angry insults, and foreplay, you get down to the meat of the subject and determine what motives really drive an individual to believe/not believe.

Only problem is, if you dare to ask why a person believes, you cross into asshole zone, because your questioning their foundations. As you can see, people dont like that.

I dont question because im trying to be a jerk, im questioning because im looking for a deeper answer then "just because". People have stated that religious people just have "faith" and thats it. But that faith was built on something previous, parental instruction, friends, religious books, something inspired them to believe in such an abstract concept, and that is what I am looking for.

Faith is based on a number of things. People feel a desire for life to have a greater meaning than just what we do on earth. People feel a desire to belong to something larger than themselves. People are taught some things by their parents. People like the tenets of the religion they belong to. People find it comforting. People get some kind of other emotional need met that I haven't accounted for yet. There are a myriad of reasons for people to believe in God, and they vary from person to person.

I already explained to you why I find the concept of God to be a comforting one, even though I know that it is most likely not true. I already explained to you why I think that other people choose to believe in God despite the lack of proof. I have given you exactly the answers that I have been given by believers, and you chose to ignore those answers and go in the direction of disproving God and such. You are an asshole for changing the subject as soon as anyone provides you with an answer to something you say you are asking, basically because I guess you want to be right. You want everyone to concede to all of your points and that's just not going to happen. You also accuse a bunch of people of being crazy theists, when really it's just that we understand the justifications people use for their systems of belief and respect their right to hold those opinions. In the end, I absolutely must insist on placing the concept of God firmly in the sphere of opinion because of the supernatural, immeasurable, and unquantifiable nature of the animal.

P.S. It's not that religious beliefs are above questioning. It's that they have no basis in science. You will only be disappointed by approaching supernatural beliefs scientifically or mathematically. We keep trying to explain that to you. You cannot test or measure God. As I tried to explain to you in the post I doubt you read and called "flailing [my] arms wildly," there is a very real, very obvious loophole that religion can (and does) use to dismiss scientific quantification entirely. It is constructed that way on purpose. That's the whole point.

[Andarvi]

Yea i'd like my kids to learn from every religion if possible. They are at least good for teaching social-history. I'd much prefer they be agnostic, but i can't just force em to be. I did always enjoy multi-culturism.

In fact, teaching your kids about every religion, lessens the chances they'll be completely brainwashed by any sect, and assures that they will probably become agnostic. In my opinion, from seing every religion and observing that they all have their positive and negative sides, and no side really has the "perfect" truth in it's grasps. Not to mention, most of them have similar roots.

The social history (what exactly do you mean by social history) part would have to be from an extremely abstract viewpoint with lots of various opinions to make many of the history's that religions put forth be even remotely accurate.

But the second bolded part is money and exactly how i feel. Best line so far.

[Neosutra]

Im glad your continuing to argue that its your opinion that god is an "opinion" ivve, its being pretty productive.

And you cant explain the reasons/comforts/etc for any belief in god and then hold those reasons above examination. If I/anyone else is not allowed to think about/critisize what you post, then dont post it. And I didnt accuse people of being crazy theists, I dismissed your debate points, as they were weak and misguided. I could care less if your a theist, or an atheist. Your the one here being antagonistic Ivve. You are stating that people believe in religion because it is opinion and has nothing to do with logic/science/reason... Holy Shit, thats exactly what Im saying. The difference is, you assume that I am being condescending when I say it, yet you are magically above that, simply schooling me in the ways of theists... Are you really that dense that you havent made this realization? You cant be..

P.S. Goodnight Ill continue this tommorrow on page 57 if you still see fit to follow the "my opinion is god is an opinion and you cant argue my opinion or your an asshole" debate path youve picked recently. Sleep tight.

[Ivve]

Im glad your continuing to argue that its your opinion that god is an "opinion" ivve, its being pretty productive.

And you cant explain the reasons/comforts/etc for any belief in god and then hold those reasons above examination. If I/anyone else is not allowed to think about/critisize what you post, then dont post it. And I didnt accuse people of being crazy theists, I dismissed your debate points, as they were weak and misguided. I could care less if your a theist, or an atheist. Your the one here being antagonistic Ivve. You are stating that people believe in religion because it is opinion and has nothing to do with logic/science/reason... Holy Shit, thats exactly what Im saying. The difference is, you assume that I am being condescending when I say it, yet you are magically above that, simply schooling me in the ways of theists... Are you really that dense that you havent made this realization? You cant be..

P.S. Goodnight Ill continue this tommorrow on page 57 if you still see fit to follow the "my opinion is god is an opinion and you cant argue my opinion or your an asshole" debate path youve picked recently. Sleep tight.

You seem to have forgotten that you're the one who's continued to challenge someone who apparently essentially agrees with you. I stated my opinion and explained it. If it is the same as yours, why do you continue to respond to my posts presenting your opinion as if it is opposing? You can lollerskate to your roflcopter, but the fact is that you're the one who opened and perpetuated this entire dialogue.

My objections are:
1. Your tone. I began this exchange being civil. You have admitted to goading both myself and other people intentionally in order to drive the discussion. That kind of makes you a troll, no matter what you think you're doing.
2. You are trying to apply science to something that has none. Approaching a belief in the supernatural with science is only going to lead to disappointing answers. I'm not upset that you are asking any question; I don't really care. The problem is that when you are provided with answers, it seems the only things that you are willing to acknowledge are those that not only agree with your own, but also with how you want them to be presented. You deem everything else "not good enough" or something that "requires more thought." People other than me have made careful, well-worded responses that you have dismissed entirely without even addressing for no clear reason. It's just fucking annoying. You artfully dance around the discussion, changing the subject when it suits you and ignoring anything that doesn't completely agree with you. It shouldn't be surprising that this is going nowhere. That's kind of why Andarvi initially said "Don't turn this into a debate about religion." These debates never make any measurable progress.

[MF Perm]

I have no interest in spending the rest of my night in a quote train saying the same things back and forth, so lets sum this up.

You two are still fighting vehimately over this one fact:

Is the concept of god is somehow "outside" the realm of science and thus cannot be proven/disproven.

You believe that, and have stated that it just "is".

I believe it to be a hypothesis just like any concept that describes something, and thus is examinable.

We disagree on this. Who is correct? Obviously I think I am correct, and you think you are. I will not sit here and argue how each of you view the perception of the word "theory".

"You cant prove god doesnt exist" - incorrect and addressed a thousand times.

"You cant prove god is a theory" - just trying to be argumentative here, or moronic

I disagree, sorry that bugs you. And i still do not see what gives you the right(or theists, if your not really theists but actually just defending the rights of those poor poor theists ), to place religious philosophy above examination. It is irresposible logically, scientifically, and holds nothing to your debate.

Since you have no interest in logic, science, debate, or evidence, this discussion is over, sorry you couldnt produce anything beyond a petty argument over the definition of "theory".

You're really stupid lol. I baby-walked you through it and you still don't get it, you just want to cry for attention throughout this entire thread. There's really no point in arguing here since you're just winging it and acting blase about points you don't want to address.

You're just as bad as fanatical theists pointing at flaw as to the reason why they are right and everyone else is wrong. The concept you have a hard time grasping is that you are a person and therefore every theory or concept you have for or against anything not tangible is guesswork and likely to be wrong.

There is a key point in the history of creation that is still debated hotly by men a million times more learned and well thought than you will ever be, and that is what triggered the events to cause this universe to be created the way that it was that it would create gases
that would lead to dust forming rocks forming planets and so forth and so on.


Again all you're debating is a singular definition of the word "god," and all the while pretending to be this smart, logical, reasoning BLAH BLAH BLAH - you haven't shown the slightest inclination towards intelligence by throwing away reasonable counterpoints as trash. Anyone that is even remotely thought-provoking and follows the steps of scientific method would have immediately noticed the inference of the subjectiveness of "god" from at the very least three people. And yet you still carry on with a singular ( and pathetically redundant ) argument telling us that there is no proof that a personal and interfering god exists, which all you're really bringing to the thread is notification that the REPLY button still works. Someone hand this motherfucker a medal, he gets the Pulitzer Prize of Obvious. gg dickface.

[Neosutra]

Thats funny MF_Perm since the only thing your capable of doing is insults at this point. Youve stopped with counterpoints, regardless of how weak they were to begin with and do nothing but post insulting replys that are offbase and clearly incorrect. Again I state that this sad attempt to somehow "win" through mud slinging only reveals your inadequate ability to logically converse.

Your pathetic.

And to:

There is a key point in the history of creation that is still debated hotly by men a million times more learned and well thought than you will ever be, and that is what triggered the events to cause this universe to be created the way that it was that it would create gases
that would lead to dust forming rocks forming planets and so forth and so on.

Your using the fact that we are still researching big bang cosmology and string theory as a proposal for what...? Seems like your just randomly spouting angry replys here w/o even a smidgent of structure. And how are physicists working in these areas "more learned and well thought" then another physicist that works in similar areas?

Are you really so stupid, so blinded by your anger, and so inept in your ability to hold a debate that you simply MUST resort to name calling and the sub par responses youve put up lately?

[Maguspk]

Thats funny MF_Perm since the only thing your capable of doing is insults at this point. Youve stopped with counterpoints, regardless of how weak they were to begin with and do nothing but post insulting replys that are off base and clearly incorrect. Again I state that this sad attempt to somehow "win" through mud slinging only reveals your inadequate ability to logically converse.

Your pathetic.

And to:

There is a key point in the history of creation that is still debated hotly by men a million times more learned and well thought than you will ever be, and that is what triggered the events to cause this universe to be created the way that it was that it would create gases
that would lead to dust forming rocks forming planets and so forth and so on.

Your using the fact that we are still researching big bang cosmology and string theory as a proposal for what...? Seems like your just randomly spouting angry replys here w/o even a smidgent of structure. And how are physicists working in these areas "more learned and well thought" then another physicist that works in similar areas?

Are you really so stupid, so blinded by your anger, and so inept in your ability to hold a debate that you simply MUST resort to name calling and the sub par responses youve put up lately?

Man, I kind of got excited when I checked on this thread after getting home and seeing you post your "last post". Get out of this thread already :/

Just wanna go ahead and say Neosutra, you claim being an atheist is so enlightening and wonderful (forgive me for generalizing your attitude) but really your viewpoints and even the way you present them to others are almost identical to any sort of extremist. I wouldn't be surprised if a hypothetical child of yours was brought up and was more fucked up than you are.

As it is you are just extremely intolerant and exactly what you so vehemently hate. I think whoever said it's a "cosmic joke" that theists and atheists are so alike (was it Kuya?) nailed it on the head.

I like Kuya's idea for balance. Brainwashing is how every religion works to an extent and eliminating that possibility by effectively not exposing them to it long enough or countering it with other small forms of brainwashing would eventually lead to a truly tolerant and "enlightened" person. Someone who is brought up on the idea's that Neosutra stands for just seems like they'd be intolerant and especially not amiable.

[Neosutra]

Which viewpoints would those be Magu? And sorry to dissapoint, you can get your kicks off people agreeing with you somewhere else. I would have stopped posting a few pages ago if Ivve/MF didnt decide to diligently argue the definition of the word "theory" in a masked attempt to do nothing but insult someone. Your no better in your attempt. I am not intolerent of anyone, I simply asked for reason when presented with ideas. You can jump on the Neo's and asshole bandwagon with kuya/MF/Ivve and go for a great ride, im sure youll have a blast. Im sorry you are incapable of having a discussion without being an ass as well.

This debate ended 3 pages ago, its just been name called since then. Call me a peice of shit for having a difference of opinion, call me an asshole for responding in kind, then be shocked when I post a response that follows suite. You 3 dont learn your lesson.

Go ahead and quote me and go off on another rant/bitch/your an asshole bitch session MF/ivve/Mug/Anyone else, cause that is surely helping.

If you want to REALLY end this, dont post another "You suck, you just dont get it" with an endless quote train, just ignore the drama and either post your thoughts on the OP or GTFO. Or just continue the faceslaps till one of you feels reasonably justified that youve screamed your side of the debate loud enough that you just have to be right .

Otherwise your just looking for the last word, so stfu.

[MF Perm]

Thats funny MF_Perm since the only thing your capable of doing is insults at this point. Youve stopped with counterpoints, regardless of how weak they were to begin with and do nothing but post insulting replys that are offbase and clearly incorrect. Again I state that this sad attempt to somehow "win" through mud slinging only reveals your inadequate ability to logically converse.

Your pathetic.

And to:

There is a key point in the history of creation that is still debated hotly by men a million times more learned and well thought than you will ever be, and that is what triggered the events to cause this universe to be created the way that it was that it would create gases
that would lead to dust forming rocks forming planets and so forth and so on.

Your using the fact that we are still researching big bang cosmology and string theory as a proposal for what...? Seems like your just randomly spouting angry replys here w/o even a smidgent of structure. And how are physicists working in these areas "more learned and well thought" then another physicist that works in similar areas?

Are you really so stupid, so blinded by your anger, and so inept in your ability to hold a debate that you simply MUST resort to name calling and the sub par responses youve put up lately?

I thought you were going to bed?

Now you've moved on from ignoring points to distorting context. Did I ever compare one scientist to another? No, I compared them to you. But it's not like you're being inconsistent here so I won't need to go any further with that. How about addressing actual points instead of reiterating your same points. But then again you are pointing to two insults in response to your condescending rebuttals out of an entire post and making this your counterpoint. If you were crying any harder I'd call Moses in to part your red sea.


If I was really bored or thought you had an ounce intellectual capacity to challenge me with I could pick apart your putrid excuse for an atheist argument post by post with ease, but you can't even seem to grasp the basic concepts of the entire argument even when I handfeed them to you. But go ahead and play the victim card 7 pages in, maybe someone will pity you after all of the bullshit you've spouted this entire thread. But hey thanks for being the GD monthly pinata, we all needed a bit of the months stress to release. It doesn't take much beyond a magnificent douche such as yourself playing with words bigger than his dick around the big kids to get stepped all over even when they try to approach him nicely.

Even maguspk was nice enough to start out by merely noting that he didn't like your attitude, and you turned that into a victim speech.


What's it like being stupid, anyways? You sure seem to have a lot of faith burned into your convictions that you fail to see the middle of the road, and the most plausible of explanations.

Oh yeah and, it's you're you dumb motherfucker, I hate to be the fag to get all Mavis Beacon up in here but for someone relying on dictionary.com to string together incoherent arguments you can't seem to orchestrate one of the easiest contractions in the English language in the over 146 paragraphs you've contributed to this thread.



PS - Welcome to the very elite MF Perm Made Me Cry Club. Your T-Shirts in the mail and the notch is already on my belt. Grats! Remember to hang your balls on my door on the way out.

[Neosutra]

Now you've moved on from ignoring points to distorting context. Did I ever compare one scientist to another? No, I compared them to you. But it's not like you're being inconsistent here so I won't need to go any further with that. .

I am a physicist, thus comparing them is comparing one scientist to another. You couldnt have read any of the other posts w/o realizing this

If I was really bored or thought you had an ounce intellectual capacity to challenge me with I could pick apart your putrid excuse for an atheist argument post by post with ease, but you can't even seem to grasp the basic concepts of the entire argument even when I handfeed them to you.
Even maguspk was nice enough to start out by merely noting that he didn't like your attitude, and you turned that into a victim speech.

Oh damn, im sorry, its because you arent bored enough to respond to my debate points, thats why you only respond in insults. Im sorry you dont want to take the effort to actually contribute more then vomit to this argument.

Ended with a lolable attempt at insult yet again, because my post in completely devoid of any intelligent response

Your like a 3rd grade kid flinging mud, ive said it before and Ill say it again, your pathetic. Your a pathetic debater, your a pathetic agressor(if thats even what your trying to be, I cant tell), and your a pathetic human being. Save your insults for your dog when he interupts your masterbaiting to your own posts.

[Demosthenes11]

Which viewpoints would those be Magu? And sorry to dissapoint, you can get your kicks off people agreeing with you somewhere else. I would have stopped posting a few pages ago if Ivve/MF didnt decide to diligently argue the definition of the word "theory" in a masked attempt to do nothing but insult someone. Your no better in your attempt. I am not intolerent of anyone, I simply asked for reason when presented with ideas. You can jump on the Neo's and asshole bandwagon with kuya/MF/Ivve and go for a great ride, im sure youll have a blast. Im sorry you are incapable of having a discussion without being an ass as well.

You completely started this antagonizing attitude when you were arguing with me. Since then, there has been no "good" response or rebuttal in your eyes. Every justification people have had for believing in God is just half-baked thought and retardedness to you. There is nothing more you can contribute in this thread (not that you contributed anything anyways). You arguing semantics wasn't even that, it was just some utter bullshit reiterating your original bitching.

[MF Perm]

[quote=Neosutra]

Now you've moved on from ignoring points to distorting context. Did I ever compare one scientist to another? No, I compared them to you. But it's not like you're being inconsistent here so I won't need to go any further with that. .

I am a physicist, thus comparing them is comparing one scientist to another. You couldnt have read any of the other posts w/o realizing this

If I was really bored or thought you had an ounce intellectual capacity to challenge me with I could pick apart your putrid excuse for an atheist argument post by post with ease, but you can't even seem to grasp the basic concepts of the entire argument even when I handfeed them to you.
Even maguspk was nice enough to start out by merely noting that he didn't like your attitude, and you turned that into a victim speech.

Oh damn, im sorry, its because you arent bored enough to respond to my debate points, thats why you only respond in insults. Im sorry you dont want to take the effort to actually contribute more then vomit to this argument.

Ended with a lolable attempt at insult yet again, because my post in completely devoid of any intelligent response

Your like a 3rd grade kid flinging mud, ive said it before and Ill say it again, your pathetic. Your a pathetic debater, your a pathetic agressor(if thats even what your trying to be, I cant tell), and your a pathetic human being. Save your insults for your dog when he interupts your masterbaiting to your own posts.[/quote:b5802]


Yeah, everytime someone on the internet says they are, did, or have something - I believe them without a doubt. Keep crying in response to my posts, it makes me feel tingley inside.

It's funny how you're the only one missing that even people who generally don't agree or get along well on these forums agree that your arguments are terrible, your attitude it shit, and your level of intellectual understanding is sub-par at best. But you go ahead and keep saying what you need to say to make yourself feel better, because I'm sure a real physicist would give two flying fucks and a broken trapeze about the opinions or relevance of his arguments to others on a video game message board. And yet here you are, all up in my base getting Vagisil on my doodz.

[Neosutra]

LoL at even the idea that your insults even shed a moments thought past a laugh when I read them.

And your REALLY arguing over wether im a physicist? I didnt say im superman, or bill gates, I said I have a degree in physics and thus do research in physical subjects.. I wouldnt categorize that as a wild claim. Check the very first page of this thread, i stated it there quite clearly.

Keep it up asswipe, I know its an endless loop of crap to continue posting here, but your also looking like an ass, so as long as your willing to perpetuate this bullshit, Ill be here to continue to laugh my ass off at your complete retardation.

[Ivve]

LoL at even the idea that your insults even shed a moments thought past a laugh when I read them.

And your REALLY arguing over wether im a physicist? I didnt say im superman, or bill gates, I said I have a degree in physics and thus do research in physical subjects.. I wouldnt categorize that as a wild claim. Check the very first page of this thread, i stated it there quite clearly.

Keep it up asswipe, I know its an endless loop of crap to continue posting here, but your also looking like an ass, so as long as your willing to perpetuate this bullshit, Ill be here to continue to laugh my ass off at your complete retardation.

I find it really hard to believe that you have a degree in anything when you can barely spell. Welcome to the internet, where people make false claims to lend validity to their arguments. POIDH.

[Neosutra]

lol ok.

Your qualifications are what again?

Edit: And i didnt even bring up my education in an attempt to "justify" or lend validity to my argument even once in this thread. I merely pointed out a discrepency in one of MFs statements about scientists' work. Anyways, good night.

[Ivve]

lol ok.

Your qualifications are what again?

Edit: And i didnt even bring up my education in an attempt to "justify" or lend validity to my argument even once in this thread. I merely pointed out a discrepency in one of MFs statements about scientists' work.

Nobody else's qualifications really matter because they're not trying to validate their arguments in that way. "I know more than you know" isn't an effective taunt when nobody else claimed to be any kind of expert.

[MF Perm]

lol ok.

Your qualifications are what again?

Edit: And i didnt even bring up my education in an attempt to "justify" or lend validity to my argument even once in this thread. I merely pointed out a discrepency in one of MFs statements about scientists' work.

http://images.newbsoft.com/bones.jpg


Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not an anonymous internet poster!