A Bad GM decision?

[Vodou]

This is what SE posted in game on the Q&A on holding mobs:

"If the holders mean to hold monsters to deliberately adjust the next spawn window or intentionally delay killing them, GMs will take action against them."

and

"Holding a monster, especially Notorious Monsters, over an extended period or intentionally delaying the battle in order to adjust the next spawn window may result in GM involvement."

When a mob is capable of being killed by a small group in 1 hour and a group comes along and is killing at a rate that equates to over 4 hours, its clearly delaying.

Intentionally delaying, to me, would mean a specific group clearly taking their sweet time about killing something that they themselves could have killed in less time without any trouble. It doesn't mean "if X can kill it in an hour, and Y takes longer than an hour, Y is delaying." It bears repeating that if they were attempting to kill it in good faith, to the best of their ability based on what they had there, then they were not holding. The debate in that instance is whether or not you should be allowed to claim with a group which is capable of killing, but which might take a long time. Since only a complete retard would say you should not be able to fight things you obviously have the ability to kill, the argument is moot, as far as I can see.

Both of you are actually confusing stated intent (what we say or think we want to do) with constructive intent (what we effectively are doing by virtue of our actions.)

When you come to kill a mob with virtually no damage and provide no actions to increase the damage, your constructive intent is to kill the mob much slowere than any normal LS would kill it. Don't pretend you don't understand this.

Intentionally delay is as I stated (by definiton) killing slower than normal. They were killing slower than normal. Not a little slower, but a lot slower.

When you shoot a gun inside a crowded room with your eyes closed, you may intend not to kill someone. You may even expect not to kill someone out of some random chance theory. But your actions provided a reasonable expectation that you will kill someone. When you take a car on the highway that has no effective gear other than first gear, you may be drving as fast as you can. You may even hope that the gears will start working again. But you cant say that when other cars are delayed while behind you, that when the highway is slowed due to your presence, that you did not intentionally do that.

No where does SE say that holding a mob requires you to "want" to hold the mob or to say in /tell "I am holding the mob" or to refuse help when others are willing to help you kill it faster. The SE policy is clearly a constructive intent concept.

[Melchiah]

I want someone to try this experiment and tell me the results.

Find an LS killing Jailer of Love (that has not yet beaten the Regen).

Bring your LS out there, a sizable enough force.

GM the other shell for stalling and see if they get jailed.

Borat say "Very Nice!"

This wins the argument.

[NiggaFromHarlem]

There seems to be a lack of information here.

As far as someone saying earlier in the thread about killing with the same amount of people in an hour: I can't really say much about this without bringing up more drama that I don't want in my legitimate thread. All I can say is look at the poster who made that comment and then search comments about this poster. I can guarantee you that this didn't happen as I'm sure anyone here will state. Ask whoever you want about being able to kill Khim with 7 in an hour. Hydra yes easily but Khimaira no.

Luniarians did Khimmy with 7 in 1 hour... sorry if this seems irrelevant, but I was there and it was not ever close to a wipe. Mind you, its not the way we would "want" to do it, but it was doable, so we apparently did over 4 times the damage with 1 fewer person.

To beat the dead horse, well yes, 12% in 30 mins is not 0%, but its slowby. It does not matter IMO, once the GM shows up and says start killing it or disengage, then you have your choice. No one posted the exact conversation on what happened, so the thread sorta speculates, but if a GM shows up, sees a sliver of damage done so far and hardly a crew capable of killing, asks to see progress made on killing, then gets no reply or sees no progress, it sorta seems obvious to me.

The server side LS politics aside, the "guys are on the way" aside, we all know that the rule is not if you do 1 HP of damage per hour, or 1% for 30 mins, nor if you do a good job with a few people, or an amazing job with only 4 white mages, etc. Khimmy should never take 4 and 1/2 hours to kill. It simply is not reasonable.

I just think: after 30 mins the only DD there is a botted WAR. Doesnt seem like there was an urgency to do the deed.

Still doesn't get around the fact that SE's policy regarding holding is specifically worded to address intentional and gross adjustment of a spawn window to keep it in more favorable time zones. It doesn't fucking matter how slow they were killing it, or how fast some other group of 7 people can kill it, they were not violating the holding policy. If they had him under %90, any reasonable person would conclude intent to kill. The point here is that they had intent enough to kill it to do over %10 damage, the GM was making up policy on the fly( or is just a complete retard), calling the GM was a bitch move, and that about sums it up.

Yes. Because you know more about SE's Policy than a GM

[Darkslitter]

There seems to be a lack of information here.

As far as someone saying earlier in the thread about killing with the same amount of people in an hour: I can't really say much about this without bringing up more drama that I don't want in my legitimate thread. All I can say is look at the poster who made that comment and then search comments about this poster. I can guarantee you that this didn't happen as I'm sure anyone here will state. Ask whoever you want about being able to kill Khim with 7 in an hour. Hydra yes easily but Khimaira no.

Luniarians did Khimmy with 7 in 1 hour... sorry if this seems irrelevant, but I was there and it was not ever close to a wipe. Mind you, its not the way we would "want" to do it, but it was doable, so we apparently did over 4 times the damage with 1 fewer person.

To beat the dead horse, well yes, 12% in 30 mins is not 0%, but its slowby. It does not matter IMO, once the GM shows up and says start killing it or disengage, then you have your choice. No one posted the exact conversation on what happened, so the thread sorta speculates, but if a GM shows up, sees a sliver of damage done so far and hardly a crew capable of killing, asks to see progress made on killing, then gets no reply or sees no progress, it sorta seems obvious to me.

The server side LS politics aside, the "guys are on the way" aside, we all know that the rule is not if you do 1 HP of damage per hour, or 1% for 30 mins, nor if you do a good job with a few people, or an amazing job with only 4 white mages, etc. Khimmy should never take 4 and 1/2 hours to kill. It simply is not reasonable.

I just think: after 30 mins the only DD there is a botted WAR. Doesnt seem like there was an urgency to do the deed.

Still doesn't get around the fact that SE's policy regarding holding is specifically worded to address intentional and gross adjustment of a spawn window to keep it in more favorable time zones. It doesn't fucking matter how slow they were killing it, or how fast some other group of 7 people can kill it, they were not violating the holding policy. If they had him under %90, any reasonable person would conclude intent to kill. The point here is that they had intent enough to kill it to do over %10 damage, the GM was making up policy on the fly( or is just a complete retard), calling the GM was a bitch move, and that about sums it up.

Yes. Because you know more about SE's Policy than a GM

SGM actually issued an apology to me and my team for the decision. He was wrong but could do nothing about drops (wasn't interested in that)

Person in team was unbanned within 30minutes and striking his warning from his record. (first time I've EVER seen someone unbanned)

+ Que the numerous pics of gms saying things like why are you holding that antilion, ect. ect.

[Jer]

Believing that all GMs know the policy and follow it is stretching reality. The only two instances I've had with a competent GM was getting a party of sky RMT banned and getting a strike removed from my account because somebody thought I was harassing them. Every other time I've had to talk to a GM, whether I called them or somebody else, they clearly didn't know what they were supposed to be doing.

[Milkymallards]

Both of you are actually confusing stated intent (what we say or think we want to do) with constructive intent (what we effectively are doing by virtue of our actions.)

When you come to kill a mob with virtually no damage and provide no actions to increase the damage, your constructive intent is to kill the mob much slowere than any normal LS would kill it. Don't pretend you don't understand this.

Intentionally delay is as I stated (by definiton) killing slower than normal. They were killing slower than normal. Not a little slower, but a lot slower.

When you shoot a gun inside a crowded room with your eyes closed, you may intend not to kill someone. You may even expect not to kill someone out of some random chance theory. But your actions provided a reasonable expectation that you will kill someone. When you take a car on the highway that has no effective gear other than first gear, you may be drving as fast as you can. You may even hope that the gears will start working again. But you cant say that when other cars are delayed while behind you, that when the highway is slowed due to your presence, that you did not intentionally do that.

No where does SE say that holding a mob requires you to "want" to hold the mob or to say in /tell "I am holding the mob" or to refuse help when others are willing to help you kill it faster. The SE policy is clearly a constructive intent concept.

I'm not pretending I don't understand your point, I actually thought I had addressed it at the end of my last post in saying it was a question of deciding whether or not groups who could kill, albeit slowly, have the right to claim. I guess we disagree on that, because I could only take intentional holding to mean a group operating well below their ability, rather than a group which is innately underpowered but doing a reasonable job with what they have.

If you were to say that low-man groups with below-average damage output have no right to claim anything because it takes them longer than most people to kill, it sets an odd precedent. In some cases, the game mechanics make this a moot point (rage timers) but if we concede that those exist to prevent blatant delaying tactics, we get back to the original argument. Can we really say that people are not even allowed to make a bona fide attempt at something unless they meet some pre-determined standard?

[Sera]

It's more about respect, let them deal with their shit. If they wipe...Fair game! Otherwise sit tight. If you don't like it, move along. Coming from a linkshell that small mans shit a lot, I know what it's like to get GM calls. Empathy, empathy.

Respect on this server is called, Diaga'ing slept darters while pulling spiders thru fafhogg. There are no innocent linkshells here and GMing on a whim is but a small part in what goes on in the Wonderful World of Fenrir.

And that makes it correct? Last I checked, multiple wrongs don't stack into a right.

[Tonelico]

Well I just trolled this entire thread. Beautiful, simply beautiful.

And the "douchebag of the thread" award goes to...

And yet you guys cried to a GM.

Nope, we took out the trash. Killed a Khimmy too

Who the fuck are you to call another LS trash? I hope you quickly lose whatever petty friendships and alliances you once had on FFXI so you can go back to abusing / being abused by your family.

(<---- only that mean when someone thinks they can call a group of people "trash")

[Melchiah]

There seems to be a lack of information here.

As far as someone saying earlier in the thread about killing with the same amount of people in an hour: I can't really say much about this without bringing up more drama that I don't want in my legitimate thread. All I can say is look at the poster who made that comment and then search comments about this poster. I can guarantee you that this didn't happen as I'm sure anyone here will state. Ask whoever you want about being able to kill Khim with 7 in an hour. Hydra yes easily but Khimaira no.

Luniarians did Khimmy with 7 in 1 hour... sorry if this seems irrelevant, but I was there and it was not ever close to a wipe. Mind you, its not the way we would "want" to do it, but it was doable, so we apparently did over 4 times the damage with 1 fewer person.

To beat the dead horse, well yes, 12% in 30 mins is not 0%, but its slowby. It does not matter IMO, once the GM shows up and says start killing it or disengage, then you have your choice. No one posted the exact conversation on what happened, so the thread sorta speculates, but if a GM shows up, sees a sliver of damage done so far and hardly a crew capable of killing, asks to see progress made on killing, then gets no reply or sees no progress, it sorta seems obvious to me.

The server side LS politics aside, the "guys are on the way" aside, we all know that the rule is not if you do 1 HP of damage per hour, or 1% for 30 mins, nor if you do a good job with a few people, or an amazing job with only 4 white mages, etc. Khimmy should never take 4 and 1/2 hours to kill. It simply is not reasonable.

I just think: after 30 mins the only DD there is a botted WAR. Doesnt seem like there was an urgency to do the deed.

Still doesn't get around the fact that SE's policy regarding holding is specifically worded to address intentional and gross adjustment of a spawn window to keep it in more favorable time zones. It doesn't fucking matter how slow they were killing it, or how fast some other group of 7 people can kill it, they were not violating the holding policy. If they had him under %90, any reasonable person would conclude intent to kill. The point here is that they had intent enough to kill it to do over %10 damage, the GM was making up policy on the fly( or is just a complete retard), calling the GM was a bitch move, and that about sums it up.

Yes. Because you know more about SE's Policy than a GM

Than any GM? No, I probably don't. I'm not privy to a GM manual. I am privy to SE's policy as publicly stated, and any reasonable person would read that policy and conclude the GM is one of those CSR people who can't be bothered to read his employer's internal literature regarding company policy because he must spend his time afk banging hot chicks. That GM? I probably do know SE's policy better. I like to think I have demonstrated that well enough at this point.

[Howard Roark]

I'm sure Kaylia posted in here somewhere but a lot of these posts are pretty inane so... tl;dr kinda

anyway, on Ifrit, we had to watch a jp LS kill khim for 7hrs (no joke) with no damage other than an excal PLD

12% in 30 mins = holding is good news, sorry bout your luck

[TrueZero]

The ls that called the GM were simply annoyed they didn't claim, but rather than grin and bear a slow (if not skilled) kill, they decided to be a bit more machiavellian about it. The GM (being like many GMs) only knows as much as he's told. He's told you're holding, so he checks you and doesn't see you're doing much damage. He's not going to understand the game mechanics (or even something as simple as "less people = slower kill"), which is why it's great that they supplied people with a revision of GM policy. They spell it out for you exactly how you have to talk to GMs, and like any shitty customer service rep, they have specific things they're supposed to listen for - and reply by the book.

So they say you're holding, when the GM asks you about it, you can simply say "we're damaging as fast as we can, and we're waiting for more people to log in." As soon as you say the magic words on Little Johnny Jackass' First Customer Service Manual he can read it and you've successfully defined the situation for him and it's more than likely you'll be fine.

Or a GM can just be a dick and jail you because he can, and since you'll continue to pay them no matter how much you complain there isn't shit to do other than man up a little bit more than your peers and wait another 48-72 hours.

[Plow]

and then 2 days later we claimed darters instead of Nidhogg

Look, if you are claiming darters in the Aery, you are wasting your time coming in the door when you KNOW everyone else has the dats pulled. If you want to be a hardass, try and do it w/o looking like a dumbass.

I'm not saying it's right, it's simply a fact that stems from a broken camp.

Yeah, fuck you for not cheating, asshole.

[EchiEchi]

God forbid, a black man with a vocabulary, whatever next, letting women have the vote?

*cough* And I was just trying to skim this thread to amuse myself and kill time. Damn you shuemue!

Hmm, something relevant to the topic...I think we have been GM'd on Khim twice for "holding" err I mean willing to risk claiming with 3 people with others enroute, while said Linkshell that GM'd us had about a dozen people there staring at it. After claiming a whopping 5 minutes, I guess that would merit a GM call? At least one Gm presented himself in say, asking about damage being done. Fortunately for us, our Aegis tanking, err I mean Lancealot was able to deliver a crushing shield bash to convince the GM we were doing damage, or we might have suffered the same fate and been jailed!

Next Month: Special Task Force investigates cases of Holding Notorious Monsters reported by players butthurt over not getting the initial claim?

Oh, and Aspid should drop N.Legs and E.Bodies ; ;

[Eiladar]

Well I just trolled this entire thread. Beautiful, simply beautiful.

And the "douchebag of the thread" award goes to...

And yet you guys cried to a GM.

Nope, we took out the trash. Killed a Khimmy too

Who the fuck are you to call another LS trash? I hope you quickly lose whatever petty friendships and alliances you once had on FFXI so you can go back to abusing / being abused by your family.

(<---- only that mean when someone thinks they can call a group of people "trash")

Yur trash.

[Khamsin]

Well I just trolled this entire thread. Beautiful, simply beautiful.

And the "douchebag of the thread" award goes to...

And yet you guys cried to a GM.

Nope, we took out the trash. Killed a Khimmy too

Who the fuck are you to call another LS trash? I hope you quickly lose whatever petty friendships and alliances you once had on FFXI so you can go back to abusing / being abused by your family.

(<---- only that mean when someone thinks they can call a group of people "trash")

Well, was the other LS trash? Every server has trash LSs. Pandemonium, for example, has one that steals HNMs and wipes to them. Apparently they're some transfer LS from another server who mistook Pandy for a place they could actually accomplish something other than being ridiculed.

Not every LS is worthy of being treated with respect.