Can non-crit based WSes proc a critical without being forced

[Therin]

See title.

Argument with friends. I've never seen an extremely high damage Guillotine that wasn't explainable by buffs (Souleater, Last Resort) or a Double Attack.

Fellow DRK friend says you can crit Guillotine - MNK friend says you can crit Asuran Fists. I don't think so. What does BG think?

(Note: Rampage, Vorpal Blade, Blade: Jin are crit-based, thus you can obviously crit them. We're talking about WSes like Guillotine, Asuran Fists, and Penta Thrust - also, any single hit WS like Spinning Slash as well. /THF forced criticals with Sneak Attack aside.)

[Judai]

My Asuran Fists never seem to crit. Having WAR, BLU and MNK at 75 and NIN at 65 I think I can safely say I know the difference between a crit WS and not. Hitting my random ass 1500 Rampages on Colibris is a huge set of crits, my Asurans however never make huge jumps in damage like Rampage does. I can even tell when my Jins and Vorpals(when I do use it) crit and there is a large increase in damage. I would have to say Non-Crit WSs cannot crit unless forced to. When Crit WSs Crit, it is quite noticable and I never notice anything like that with Asuran.

[Therin]

My MNK friend said that he parsed a run against Trolls and that his average WS was 600 damage, but there were several outliers that did around 1.2k damage. He also said that his accuracy was parsed at 90% and he WSed in even more accuracy gear than he TPed in, so it can't be that his typical WS was only connecting half of the hits and that his outliers were full-hit. This seems hard to explain unless Asuran Fist can crit (which I don't believe), even though this is only one parse. How else can that be explained (without telling him that he's dumb or making up information )?

[Judai]

I have never seen my AF jump like that personally so I don't know. I use alot of Acc gear myself and it's still hard to land all hits. Maybe he just doesn't realize the difference between landing all hits and not. >.> When you do land all AF hits. 90% Acc =/= 90% AF Acc though. Hitting 8 hits in succesion is a bit different.

Also, thinking about it, trolls screw up WS Parses with Diamondhide. He prolly had some 0s and very low AFs because of it, which skewed his WS parse averages. Have him parse himself on G.Colibri and he will notice AF is pretty set on Damage vs TP return and no radical jumps.

My Avg Rampages are like 750+, I hit 1k a good amount when I crit and then the full on every hit crit 1500s. Big difference between crit WSs and non.

[Yutuyu]

easy to test conclusively with COR roll, right?

[Michaera]

I'm fairly sure I've seen Wheeling Thrust crit (often).. On some mobs you can easily see like three (four) tiers of damage consistently, around 300-350 being a normal hit with no crit, nothing, 450-500 being a crit, and 700ish usually representing a double attack. My numbers might be off since I'm trying to think of trolls from months ago, but I always remembered seeing three different levels of damage. I never thought to wonder if it couldn't happen.

Maybe an explanation for AF is that it's so dang variable as it is that it's hard to notice when one hit crits or two hits or however many. Can you try it with howling fist (one hit, right?) and see what happens?

Voted yes.

[Lhexh]

Wasn't this argument finally laid to rest back in the Dex thread? It was pretty convincingly proved that weaponskills that aren't crit based cannot crit without SneakAttack forcing it.

[Zosi]

Asuran definitely can't. The variation your friend was seeing was because he was severely shorting his attack/STR for acc gear during WS.

[Therin]

Wasn't this argument finally laid to rest back in the Dex thread? It was pretty convincingly proved that weaponskills that aren't crit based cannot crit without SneakAttack forcing it.

I don't remember there being a poll there. Besides, this is a much more efficient and direct way to ask this question and gain public feedback than sifting through a bunch of pages of Searain ranting about the importance of stacking DEX gear on Rampage (which is one of the weaponskills that we're not even concerned about, as it's ability to critical is obvious).

[Meat]

If guillotine could crit we'd be seeing screenshots of massive damage on an 8hit multiple crit ws's

[Therin]

If guillotine could crit we'd be seeing screenshots of massive damage on an 8hit multiple crit ws's

Yeah - that was my comment too. I've done a 2,341 damage Vorpal Blade as DRK on a Dynamis - Jeuno mob due to a single Double Attack, and the critical bonus from a COR's rolls. Even when I've gotten TWO Double Attacks on a Guillotine with the same buffs I've never seen more than 1,800.

[Lhexh]

In the Dex thread there were seperate tests, aside from Serain's, that showed a THF could not get a first hit crit on Dancing Edge while testing on rabbits with a fairly large sample size. I also listed data where I tested Shadowstitch as WAR/THF and was unable to generate a single WS that fell outside the calculated bounds of pdif variation and approach the data of a SA+Shadowstitch.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

I have most definitely gotten crits on Guillotine. 5 hit 1800+ without souleater or zerk.

[Max™]

I have most definitely gotten crits on Guillotine. 5 hit 1800+ without souleater or zerk.

Sure it was 5 hits, not 6 or 7?

I've gotten a few 3x Doubles on Raging Rush, very noticeable because of the 21 Tp return and silly ass damage, I'd have to assume Guillo could get three doubles too.

[jerkbox]

I say no as well. If you look at damage variance on your normal attacks, you can see how wide of a spread and how random each hit can be... then apply that to 8 hits that are displayed as a single number and pretend that every single hit is at one of the extremes. I think that's why people think Asuran and other non-crit WSes can crit... because all 8 hits happened to be at the high end of the damage spectrum.

[Diametric]

easy to test conclusively with COR roll, right?

Don't you mean THF's roll? I agree that would help if anyone wanted to test this.

[socoxak]

I say no as well. If you look at damage variance on your normal attacks, you can see how wide of a spread and how random each hit can be... then apply that to 8 hits that are displayed as a single number and pretend that every single hit is at one of the extremes. I think that's why people think Asuran and other non-crit WSes can crit... because all 8 hits happened to be at the high end of the damage spectrum.

Can't this be tested now with the h2h change on weaker mobs? (no variation once you get to a certain point.. or something^^