COR/Phantom Roll Thread

[mikazuki]

just finished a nin war drk brd rdm cor(me) merit pt, exp/hr sucked to be honest at 16k/hr lower colibri, 2pts in middle poaching from us, melees engaging wrong target - and rune chopper on the war >_< (maybe he had some fresh thing going on and i didn't see it).

the main thing that would have really helped though is if the brd didn't use minuet, serious freaking waste of time when i put on 4/10/11 chaos most of the pt. enough to bring my gimpy cor slug shots to 1k~ sometimes, others were nearly all 876?

minuet is dead, long live march.

[divisortheory]

Using some numbers from Chaos Roll that were posted by rvw on some other forum that I don't know the original source of, I came up with the following approximations for roll strengths:

(all numbers are /256, number to the right of -> indicates with a DRK in the party)

I: 15 -> 40 (+35)
II: 19 -> 44 (+35)
III: 24 -> 48 (+24)
IV: 64 -> 88 (+24)
V: 28 -> 52 (+34)
VI: 31 -> 56 (+25)
VII: 39 -> 64 (+35)
VIII: 7 -> 32 (+25)
IX: 43 -> 68 (+25)
X: 47 -> 72 (+25)
XI: 79 -> 104 (+25)

These numbers are approximate, but it's pretty clear there's a pattern. My guess is either that all the 24s are actually 25s, or all the 25s are actually 24s. Also some of the original numbers could be off-by-one. Similar with the 35s, they are probably either 34, 35, or possibly 36.

I think these could be pinpointed more precisely by comparing with other values for attack.

Also, it would be interesting to see if perhaps other rolls followed similar percentages. Maybe rolls are a fixed percentage across the board for every roll. Does Rogue's Roll with a IX give 43/256 also?

[Ashira]

Back to this for a bit if possible...

I'm pretty sure I had seen it in another thread, but cannot recall which of the various update threads it was; but was wondering if any conclusive testing has come on Fighter and Rogue roll. Pretty sure I'd seen possible Rogue's Roll numbers somewhere but don't recall anything on Fighter's, besides mentions of using it in merit.. nothing on the actual output on various rolls.

If no one has done conclusive testing yet, I suppose I can try and set something up, though I could probably use some guidance on how to get more efficient results. ;D

[divisortheory]

Back to this for a bit if possible...

I'm pretty sure I had seen it in another thread, but cannot recall which of the various update threads it was; but was wondering if any conclusive testing has come on Fighter and Rogue roll. Pretty sure I'd seen possible Rogue's Roll numbers somewhere but don't recall anything on Fighter's, besides mentions of using it in merit.. nothing on the actual output on various rolls.

If no one has done conclusive testing yet, I suppose I can try and set something up, though I could probably use some guidance on how to get more efficient results. ;D

The easiest way would be to test some of the more easily quantifiable rolls like Gallant etc. If a pattern can be spotted between 3-4 different rolls, it might be safe to assume that it applies to all others at wel. If nothing else it would be easier to verify that it does than to come up with the numbers from scratch.

[shaddix]

would you not prefer: drk war sam brd cor rdm

cor chaos+fighers brd minuet x2???

[Delekii]

COR roll is better than any melee roll, even chaos.

[Kylen]

The original numbers for Fighter's and Rogue's rolls were from extensive parsed tests that were posted on a jp wiki site. Each value for each roll was tested ~500 times and the number of critical or DA procs was recorded. Coincidentally, the numbers happened to line up pretty close to the % numbers for Chaos Roll.

Figher's Roll tests

Rogue's Roll tests

Hopefully those same guys will do those tests again and post some new data for Fighter's and Rogue's rolls. If SE buffed those rolls to have the same % values as the new Chaos Roll, that would be insane.

[mikazuki]

if you want to test fighter's use nin75 with no other source of DA (/war brutal etc.) and hornetneedle/beestinger. 500 swings will take a few minutes.
crit is a bit harder because you have to take off the base rate with a control test, same method otherwise.

[Kylen]

Looks like Wizard's Roll received some slight buffing, but it's pretty much the same as before:

Base damage was 190 with Quick Draw, with no external sources of MAB and no BLM in party
source: dyvidd at http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/db/jobs.html ... =48;page=1

Roll #	Damage	MAB	MAB pre-update (from Wiki)
1		  193		+2	+2
2		  195		+3	+2
3		  197		+4	+3
4		  197		+4	+3
5		  209		+10  +9
6		  199		+5	+4
7		  201		+6	+5
8		  203		+7	+5
9		  191		+1	+1
10		 203		+7	+6
11		 212		+12  +12
Bust	  182		-4	-4

Some of those values are fractions rounded to the nearest integer, so if we convert all of the values to x/256, here are the new values for Wizard's Roll (we still get a lot of fractions though). More tests still need to be done with a BLM in the party too.

Roll #	Damage	MAB (out of 256)
1		  193		+4/256
2		  195		+7/256
3		  197		+9/256
4		  197		+9/256
5		  209		+26/256
6		  199		+12/256
7		  201		+15/256
8		  203		+18/256
9		  191		+1/256
10		 203		+18/256
11		 212		+30/256
Bust	  182		-11/256

[Tomino]

overall, /clap at this update. yesterday and today I was finally able to handle the support role properly, without having a brd at my side or 2 specific jobs (war, thf) to be able to do something that matters.

now the basic Hunter (Acc) and Chaos (Atk) rolls work as intended, buffing . now Evoker's refreshes, with it's 2mp/tick constant (no SMN). tried the good ol' rolls like WAR one and it looked about the same, as already pointed out; they buffed what needed, and thx SE for that.


on a side note, Chaos XI easily took DRK to 900 attack (berserker, ws gear)

[Kilhart]

Mmm. Steel Bullets.
Mmm. Chaos Roll.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ostupdate3.jpg

Yes, that was a fairly abnormal setup for the pure sake of e-peen. It's much easier for CORs to reach the pDIF cap now, though, especially with the buff to Chaos Roll and the increased demand for DRGs in parties.

[Auspice]

Mmm. Steel Bullets.
Mmm. Chaos Roll.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ostupdate3.jpg

Yes, that was a fairly abnormal setup for the pure sake of e-peen. It's much easier for CORs to reach the pDIF cap now, though, especially with the buff to Chaos Roll and the increased demand for DRGs in parties.

That's awesome! I doubt we'd still be "allowed" to go full DD into an endgame event though, anyone try it yet? Curious to see if our DMG is any higher or if it's still pretty paltry.

[Kylen]

That's awesome! I doubt we'd still be "allowed" to go full DD into an endgame event though, anyone try it yet? Curious to see if our DMG is any higher or if it's still pretty paltry.

With the recent buff to Detonator it might be worth trying it out to see how high we can push our numbers. To even have a chance of landing regular shots and Slug against things like Gods, though, I think we're still going to need to go all-out on r.acc gear and sushi, leaving us pretty far behind DD-wise. The new +25 r.acc buff to Corsair Bullets might help in this regard, but those are still too rare and expensive to really consider spamming them against any HNM.

Steel Bullets should do nice things for our Quick Draws, though, making it relatively easy to break 300 damage per shot and over 400 with the right subjob/gear/Wizard's Roll (500-550 if you have the most insane gear possible + day + weather bonuses).

[Kilhart]

RNGs still surpass us by quite a bit, and I don't see a LS having a COR use physical DD on upper tier HNMs unless they're low on numbers. With Steel Bullets, though, a fairly well-equipped COR/RDM with fully merited QD can now destroy a Chi-Blasting MNK in DoT on HNMs. Nothing too special, but it's definitely a welcome addition to a support job's repertoire.

[Tomino]

Steel Bullets should do nice things for our Quick Draws, though, making it relatively easy to break 300 damage per shot and over 400 with the right subjob/gear/Wizard's Roll (500-550 if you have the most insane gear possible + day + weather bonuses).

could I ask you where are you taking these numbers from? with what kind of gear/setup/enemy?

steel bullets took me yesterday from 210 to 241 dmg on Temperance. Moldavite&AF on, no Pendant/HQ Stave/Wizard Roll/mage sub but still it's difficult for me to think these latter bonuses to stack with a whole 100% dmg increase.
besides, 300+ dmg per QD every minute *while* buffing the whole party against HNMs is already perfect, averaging 400+ with a long range, istant /ja would be kinda broken in my opinion.

[Tythera]

things I can think of:

Corsair gun+1 and Steel bullets: whatever base (I don't know the calculation here)
HQ stave: 15%
Ugly pendant: 8 MAB
Novio earring: 7 MAB
Moldavite earring: 5 MAB
AF hat: don't recall what this gives offhand either
Denali kecks: 3 MAB
Memento Mori: 20 MAB (yeah this isn't practical)
Day/weather bonus: 25%
Sub BLM bonus: 24%

After all that it's 23 MAB (43 with memento mori), 64% straight bonus, and whatever AF hat actually gives on top of the base damage

I probably forgot stuff or misrepresented something but at least it gets the general gist of things

[Delekii]

Quickdraw Damage = ((GD+AD)*2)*SB*DWB*(MAB/MDB)*(1-reduction)

Floor at each stage

So in optimal circumstances,

GD: Gun Damage, Corsairs Gun +1 = 42
AD: Ammo Damage, Steel Bullet = 70
Double Weather, Day (1.35 DWB, guaranteed with Obi)
MAB:
BLM Sub 24
Novio 7
Moldy 5
Ugg Pendant 8
AF Hat about 6
Denali Kecks 3
Wizard Roll of 11 with BLM in pt 16
Diffusion Memento Mori 20

Total MAB= 89 (MAB 1.69)

SB: Staff Bonus (HQ = 1.15)

Assuming MDB=1 (no MDB) and resistence = none (256/256)
(42+70)*2*1.15*1.35*1.89 = 653 damage

Diabolos could push it higher still, not sure how much Dream Shroud is. Of course, you are pretty much never going to have all of the above, it's just theoretical.

[Tomino]

thanks for explaining it so good 8)

but speaking of actual, pratical, situations, what kind of damages could be pushed with QD?

[NynJa]

I dont think they buffed up rolls that didnt need to be buffed up.
BLM roll was pretty much fine how it was.

[Alisha]

out of mere curiosity has anyone tried monks roll yet?