WS Changes testing

[underscore]

i believe it's the multi-hit weapon skill extra attacks that have the extra hits with the enhanced tp modifier, because i've gotten several 1000+dmg raging rushes with only 2 tp return and 1200+ with 3 tp return. when i use metatron and get 1tp return, it's also ~3-400dmg, the same as pre-patch

[Tiernin]

Could the increase in damage to the WS not mentioned be just a side effect of the 2hand buff? Or has the mods for the WS had a ninja change?

[Nagamaki]

i believe it's the multi-hit weapon skill extra attacks that have the extra hits with the enhanced tp modifier, because i've gotten several 1000+dmg raging rushes with only 2 tp return and 1200+ with 3 tp return. when i use metatron and get 1tp return, it's also ~3-400dmg, the same as pre-patch

Unless they made Raging Rush work differently compared to other crit mod WS when they modified its TP function, the first hit of it should now have a fTP of 1.0 regardless of TP. In other words, extra hits would be carrying over a fTP of 1.0, which is already their normal fTP and not actually any sort of special behavior, which is why a 3% return (miss, hit hit da hit) will do the same damage a basic hit hit hit one would.

Wouldn't exactly be hard to settle this with Warrior's Charge to force DA on something where attack is capped and 1st hit fTP is not 1.0, but I haven't seen any specific evidence so far of any such carry over, and some decent evidence against it.

[aurik]

Explain the 2500 dmg gekko to fafnir then.

[Nagamaki]

Like I mentionned in the other thread, SE's update note wording very strongly hints at something specifically affecting level correction:

- Two-handed weapons will now receive larger benefits from a character’s attributes, and will also inflict more damage when facing higher-level opponents or enemies with high defense.

The only type of mod that would specifically affect damage against higher-level opponents is a level correction change, similar to the past patches on ranged attack level correction.

It would take a truly ungodly amount of attack to get your cRatio nearing 3 on something like Fafnir if the standard 0.05 per level correction is applied, could be possible with everything stacked given the new Chaos Roll and all, but I haven't seen much detail on the what buffs were for that WS, if its posted somewhere in detail I'd like to take a look.

Either way, what would explain the 1% 400 DMG Kaitens Rukenshin reported? Unless this carry over would only occur in the WS that were specifically listed (which excludes Kaiten) that are also two-handed (since there is no such carry over on Dragon Kick), nothing immediately comes to mind.

[TT]

wheeling thrust now a static damage. XPed on mamools this afternoon, everytime id do 702 damage. (Love Halberd) and DA for 1038. *everytime* Mezraq varied a lil more but was still around the same numbers 890-900 and DA for 1253. wasnt getting good numbers using skewer or penta on mamools, (500-700) but wheelin being static is kinda odd. need to test some SA action.

[RKenshin]

Explain the 2500 dmg gekko to fafnir then.

Same way you explain how Guillotine and Asuran Fists have such a wide damage range when they can't critical on any hits... The large range is simply variation in the PDIF rolls.

One person popping out a 2.5k doesn't mean that it's common, so really the best way to explain it is a high pdif roll. Considering that I currently believe you can peak at around 1700-1900 damage in the ideal situation without a DA landing, and the second hit can peak at around 500-600, a WS landing for 2.5k isn't very hard to explain at all. I've already almost broke 2.5k on Puks, and with the messed up level correction formulas they have now I don't see how that's unexplainable on higher mobs. Especially since there are many more types of buffs I could've had to push me past 2.5k.

I mean seriously, if both hits were the same FTP when one hit can land for as much as 1.8k... Why haven't we seen any 3.6k Gekkos? Or heck even 3k+ would do it.

[Nagamaki]

Wheeling Thrust ignores (part of) target defense, which means it can reach the new flat 3.0 non-crit cap on two-handed weaponskills easier than other weaponskills, hence the static damage from it despite presumably uncapped natural attack.


Ruke' point on the lack of truly insane Gekkos is quite valid, SAM/WAR Gekkos on Puks would do double damage when double attack kicks in if fTP just carried over, not an extra few hundred damage. What makes the 2500 number on Fafnir crazy isn't the number itself (its high but not beyond the scope of damage observed on merit mobs) but the fact that it happened on something so high level, you just shouldn't be able to get your cRatio and pdif that high on a level 90 Wyrm if level correction still applied normally.

[RKenshin]

I'm actually not even putting Fafnir and Sea Puks on a different ground now as far as damage capabilities against them go... Or at least not until we know more about all of these changes. Because while before patch it'd be insane and unheard of to have similar damage results on an HNM as on an exp mob, with the huge change in just about everything involving 2h weapons on top of nutty level correction formulas, it's hard to really tell if there is even a difference.

I mean like, the first set of 2h WS I saw on Fafnir all for ~1.2k wasn't much lower from the first set of 2h WS I saw on an exp mob for ~1.3k to start with... Less than an hour after the servers went up.

[aurik]

Explain the 2500 dmg gekko to fafnir then.

Same way you explain how Guillotine and Asuran Fists have such a wide damage range when they can't critical on any hits... The large range is simply variation in the PDIF rolls.

Asuran at least has a very narrow damage range when all 8 hits connect.

Even with a perfect 3.0 pdif, 3.25+1.0 (DA) cumulative multiplier and on the assumption it was 300TP, that leads to a base damage of nearly 200. With a Great Katana that probably didn't exceed 80 wd.

[Reality]

no merits, fortitude axe + torque, was hitting cerb for 60-70 with coeurl sub + berserk if anyone cares

[Nagamaki]

Assuming gorget, capped pdif on both hits and using the old (and still valid as far as I know) WSC and capped fSTR, these are the STR amounts needed per weapon to produce a 2467 Gekko

Amanomurakumo: 134
Ushikirimaru: 144

Of course even those amounts of STR you probably wouldn't cap fSTR on Faf's VIT, so the real numbers would be a tad higher, but this is absolutely not difficult to achieve and you don't even need Etudes, which certainly could have been used.

Even getting close to a 3.0 pdif using normal level correction on a level 90 Wyrm, now that is something else entirely, and that combined with SE's wording is why I believe they messed with the correction.

[Ddong]

Sorry in advance if this is not right place to ask.

I'm not really great when it comes to the formulas, so my question is: are the sea gorgets still one of best equip to use for 1 hit ws?

[Amele]

Sorry in advance if this is not right place to ask.

I'm not really great when it comes to the formulas, so my question is: are the sea gorgets still one of best equip to use for 1 hit ws?

yes.

[Reality]

would it be unwise to swap in breeze instead of keeping fortitude torque (+7 skill) on fulltime for great axe? removing it lowers your overall skill with the weapon, which seems unsettling to me

[Zekyr]

Apparently Wheeling Thrust now ignores Invincible, or at least it was in dynamis tonight. Did it do this before the updates? Not a DRG, so I don't have much experience with the skill, but all I know is two wheelings went off about 15 seconds into invincible and amidst the flat line of 0s they did (albeit not impressive) damage.

[Amele]

would it be unwise to swap in breeze instead of keeping fortitude torque (+7 skill) on fulltime for great axe? removing it lowers your overall skill with the weapon, which seems unsettling to me

it gives an accuracy boost that is at least comparable to a PCC and gives an fTP bonus larger than the lost attack will reduce your pdif.

it would really depend on how many hits your weaponskill of choice has though, tentative tests by nagamaki indicated that for multihits, it might be better to just keep a PCC on during weaponskill. (the results were within the margin of error though, so don't take this as gospel, just that you're not being dumb if you don't swap over 2-3 hits).

[VZX]

Have anyone checked the whether the number posted from OP correct?

I read different info from Gobli:
Here's what they said:

Howling Fist    2.50 	2.75 	3.00 	STR20% 	VIT50% 	Seems that the relation is the same as
Dragon Kick 	2.00 	2.75 	3.50 	STR50% 	VIT50% Hard Slash to Crescent Moon
Raging Rush     1.00 			STR35% 		D doesn't seem to be changed
Cross Reaper 	2.00 	2.25 	2.50 	STR30% 	MND30% 	D doesn't seem to be, but Attack seems to be increased
Penta Thrust 	1.00 			STR20% 	DEX20% 	Seems not 0.75 anymore
Skewer 	         1.00 			STR35% 		(Ry
Tachi:Yuki 	1.75 	2.00 	2.50 	STR75% 		
Tachi:Gekko 	1.75 	2.00 	2.50 	STR75% 		*Can't translate*
Tachi:Kasha 	1.75 	2.00 	2.50 	STR75% 		
Empyreal Arrow 	1.50? 	2.00? 	2.50? 	STR16%? 	AGI25%? 	Multiplier seems to be lowered down
Detonator 	1.50? 	2.00? 	2.50? 	AGI30%? 		But seems the ranged attack is twice as much as before

Seems they have similar guess to mine for Empyreal Arrow and Detonator

[LD]

Ah, so the changes that were made to Howling & DK were that Howling was made more powerful at 100% (+1.00), DK was made more powerful at 300%(+0.50), and both were made more powerful at 200% (+0.25).

[VZX]

Also note Y/G/K @100% vs 200%
was: 1.50 2.50 (Hagun gives 33.33...% increase)
BG report: 2.50 3.00 (Hagun gives 20% increase)
SG report: 1.75 2.00 (Hagun gives ~14.29% increase)