WS Changes testing

[Judai]

I'm not great at math but it seems unless you have 300% TP, Hagun is still best?

except for the TP bonus, hagun fails stat wise.

what this has done is close the gap enough that the other endgame gkts will be competitive once ws+dot is taken into account.

hagun has been dethroned, but it's still in the running. (similar to S/F S/P P/U etc etc. for ninja really)

or woods/man/jugg/ridill/sink etc on warrior.

The TP Bonus is pretty big factor though. My DoT is solid on SAM but WSs are the bread and butter imo. If Hagun is still helping me do 200+ dmg a WS over other GKs then I don't see how those other GKs will be upping my DoT 200+ dmg in 5 hits and dethroning Hagun. If that made sense. Not too mention WSs are the big thing for SAM on HNMs etc.

I'm don't want to buy 3 other weapons like I have for other jobs, I got Soboro, Ushi and Hagun atm. I play with Soboro when bored, never use Ushi unless I have 300TP and Hagun is my break and butter. Trying to see if this is still acceptable.

I just don't really see how the other GKs are going to up my DoT enough in the 5 hits it takes me to get 100TP. (5 after WS obviously)

[pahnphoenix]

my testing indicates 1.75@100%, 2.0@200%, 2.5@300% for gekko.

testing: here

hagun is still superior to onimaru and shinsoku below 300%. the only real effect of this change is a) a huge buff to soboro, putting it plainly ahead of hagun, and b) putting poor onimaru users and foolish shinsoku users close to hagun users in XP, appropriately spamming WS at 100%.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Penta Thrust also got an update worth noting:
1.00@100%TP 2.00@100%TP 3.00@100%TP
Accuracy varies with TP

While not huge alone, this combined with 1 DEX=1 ACC has made SAM/WAR with Engetsuto the combination of choice for me as a Mithra. Even while fighting non piercing weak enemies, my overall damage is better than with a great katana.

My pDIF isn't quite as high as with great katana, but my hit rate is still 95%. Also double attack helps Penta Thrust more than Y/G/K. Only possible way to get better damage would be with Soboro now.

I don't have any merits yet (Lv73 SAM), but with Carbonara I have a 5 hit build with Engetsuto which combines perfectly with Meditate. (Store TP +51)
3 Hit Penta Thrust (21.6+19.6+19.6+19.6+19.6=100)
4 Hit Penta Thrust (22.6+19.6+19.6+19.6+19.6=101)
5 Hit Penta Thrust (23.6+19.6+19.6+19.6+19.6=102)
6 Hit Penta Thrust (24.6+19.6+19.6+19.6+19.6=103)

You have to love this:
Hit 103TP ... Meditate ... Penta Thrust 23TP ... Tic 43TP ... Hit 64TP ... Tic 84TP ... Tic 104TP ... Penta Thrust 23TP ... Tic 43TP ... Hit 64TP ... Tic 84TP ... Tic 104TP ... Penta Thurst 23TP

Not sure how well this would work for a STR heavy Elvaan.

[Nameless]

some stuff that happened in limbus today:

went king floor,i never did it before update but WS dmg overall didnt seem that good,~400 on aspid,200-400 on fafnir and a wooping 35 and 65 on behe with a SAd 650
no clue if thats better,worse or the same than how it was before as it was my 1st time there
also,melee swings seemed rather normal on mobs,~100/swing with nins or mnks swinging with 80-100

now the weirdest thing i noticed:
SA still seemed to function like before the update,but not on all mobs
floor 1 ghosts was no difference,WSing from front had an edge over SA attacks,but when we hit 3rd floor and engaged wyverns it was ~500 from the front vs 1k+ SA,on aspid SA seemed to have a slight edge over front WS aswell

idk what that means but SA wsing might be either mob or defense related
guesses? x;

I doubt you gonna have 3.0 pDIF against mobs like ground kings that got perhaps higher than 500 def. Which will make pDIF 3.0 only attendable with SA or critical hit. Same exact reason I think ppl are blowing out of proportion when they say it is such a big advantage, yes it is only when you fight merit mobs, not on HNM that got high def.

[Amele]

my testing indicates 1.75@100%, 2.0@200%, 2.5@300% for gekko.

testing: here

hagun is still superior to onimaru and shinsoku below 300%. the only real effect of this change is a) a huge buff to soboro, putting it plainly ahead of hagun, and b) putting poor onimaru users and foolish shinsoku users close to hagun users in XP, appropriately spamming WS at 100%.

(excluding meditate)

well, most tests put a (max gap) hagun at 1070~ and a 100TP onimaru hit at ~960 (at lower pdif's than 3.0 this gap will be smaller.)

so you need to 'find' 110 damage at 3.0 PDIF and capped fstr.

at 3.0 PDIF and capped fstr on an onimaru, you stand to make approximately (83-75) * 3.0 = 24 damage per hit over hagun, so you'll at least 5 hits (120 damage) to make up 110. most people sport a 6-7 hit build.


(including meditate) free 1.5 weaponskills every 2:30seconds, average time to TP 6 hits @ 5 seconds (ish, ~35% total haste) per hit, typically will get .95*(24*180/5) extra damage in the time it takes to put another meditate up, need to make up ~165 damage: I come up with ~+820 damage.

isn't that interesting.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

Let me see if I understand what you have said:

With a 6 hit setup with capped pDIF, capped fSTR, and 35% haste, Hagun does 110DMG more on WS than Onimaru, but the Onimaru does 120DMG more than Hagun while gaining TP for the next weaponskill, which leaves Onimaru with a 10DMG advantage every time you weaponskill. However, with Meditate you will probably do 7+1 weapon skills every 180 seconds. This gives Onimaru 70DMG more than Hagun during the 7 weaponskills between the Meditates, but then the Hagun will do 110DMG more during the 'free' weaponskill, which still puts Hagun in the lead by 40DMG.

What I take from this is:
Onimaru > Hagun at 300% TP
Hagun > Onimaru on HNM where TP < 300%

Hagun > Onimaru during Merit PT
Onimaru > Hagun on Imps

=============================================
PS:
Piercing Weak, Too Weak Enemy
Engetsuto >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hagun & Onimaru
Penta Thrust DMG:
(Weapon_DMG+fSTR+STR_MOD+DEX_MOD)*#Hits*pDIF*Pierc ing_Bonus
(85+16+86*.2+83*.2)*5*3.00*1.25=2512DMG
lolEngetsuto <3 DEX=ACC

[Amele]

actually, with a 7 hit setup, onimaru is ahead about 800 damage I think. (I made a few logic errors but the math is sound for 7 hits instead of 6)

at 6 hits I think hagun pulls ahead of onimaru by about.. 165 damage every meditate on average I think.

all of these gaps will be smaller if your pdif is lower (and your fstr is uncapped etc). although the 138 STR sam I was making my estimates based on will still have capped FSTR during weaponskill versus mobs with VIT <79.

I should do these estimates for ushikirimaru and shinsoku too, but I'm feeling pretty lazy.

anyway, the short of it is, what used to be entirely one sided is now more or less a dead-heat. so use whichever gkt best matches your personal preference/playstyle/sensibilities. (me? I want a kumokirimaru)

[Nagamaki]

Hagun is still very powerful, especially for WSing with a TP amount greater than 100% but less than somewhere around 250% (could be easily calculated).

The buffed fTP at 100% means other GKTs are closer on WS damage, but the fTP growth from 200% to 300% (so 100% to 200% for Hagun) is still 0.005 per 1% TP, so if you're SCing with someone else/TAing or anything like that, the wait/setup time will generally get your TP up towards 200%, resulting in a significant damage bonus with Hagun.

[Judai]

I use 6hit, fck onimaru. Soboro was sweet in xp tho today. Too bad I slacked on PLM, I started to goof with it on L.Colibri and skill it up, went from 90>163 so far and wow, the dmg is fcking hax. 1.2k Pentas on L.Colibri with 163 skill. 5Hit set-up, so I literally just spam Penta when I Meditate for 3-4 WSs. Penta spam on SAM is insane, lol. Wish I had it fully leveled to try out in merit parties on G.Colibri.

[Amele]

I guess I better start skilling up my polearm lol.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

/cheer Judai (Taru DEX is sweet too!)

I used GK to 50, PL from 51 to 60, and then PL+Bow from 60 to 73. Now my GK skill is only 203. Even with 25% haste and the 280 delay GK it is taking a while to skill it up ; ;

Looking forward to meriting v. G. Colibri also ^_^

[Judai]

Yea, skilling up is sucking but hitting skill ups on all 5 Penta hits is hawt. Penta is definately a pwn WS again though. Can't even imagine what I would do if my PLM was capped. Need some Besieges to come around now.

[draxyl]

Just go duo/trio some caederva mire xp mobs...

[Alisha]

the changes to howling fist/dragon kick are nice but not enough to keep them competative wich i assume is the reason they were buffed. though i havent tried either with mnk/thf yet.

[ringthree]

the changes to howling fist/dragon kick are nice but not enough to keep them competative wich i assume is the reason they were buffed. though i havent tried either with mnk/thf yet.

Actually, I think they were buffed for PUP.

[Darcatvar]

I know everyone is all about the 2handed weapons right now but was doing some testing im Emp Arrow on kirin today. RNG/WAR with brd and using sushi. My 100tp Emp arrows were behind my winders about a 100dmg but at 300tp emp arrow was doing nicely. Gonna try again tomorrow using meat and see how things go.

300tp Emp Arrow 1105dmg on kirin.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52...r/IMG_0473.jpg

[Tradition]

Move out of range so you don't get reamed

[DragonCloud64]

Heh the ws changes are nice, but im just pissed that it made my raging fists and its setup obsolete :\ and these are on pup

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7937/neohowlnj6.png
http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/3...odragonog2.png

[Rionel]

I thought I might give a little observation for this topic concerning SAM WS.

It seems the only way for WS to do any more DMG for SAM is if one has Overwhelm merits activated. It appears Overwhelm's bonus jumps over the cap, which is a bit strange. Stranger seeing a SA Tachi: Kasha do LESS than a Tachi: Kasha face to face with the monster, rather than being similar damage; atleast I think so.

Hopefully I have this right, and hopefully this is a bit helpful...

[Darcatvar]

Another SKY god with 300tp Emp Arrow. Popped Suzy for 1400 dmg at 300tp. RNGs with 300tp mean something now.

Double Att, zerk rng/war eating sushi.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y52...r/IMG_0477.jpg