The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[aurik]

2h weapons -- excel at HNM-class monsters
1h weapons / dw -- excel at VT-class and lower monsters

gaem balance.

Remember, balance is not making everyone equal, but rather giving everyone something unique to excel at.

[kuronosan]

And FYI, I have read every post in this thread since it was started after the update. I simply don't agree with the statement that it's "way beyond broken". If anything they should fix accuracy/DEX ratio and nothing more. 2-handed weapons SHOULD do more damage in both single strikes AND in weaponskills.

Again. I raided with rangers, dual-wielders/hitters, and 2-handers... and we were all pretty evenly matched except in the weaponskill department. Guess who the high hitters were? Wish I used a parser but I don't - but I can swear by these numbers:

Rangers - Averaged between 800-1500 sidewinder/slug shot
Monks - Averaged between 500-1000 asuran fists
Sams/Drks - Averaged between 800-1400 gekko/spinning slash @ 100% TP, 1000-1700 @ 200% TP.

Now, keep in mind that the single attacks by 2-handers did anywhere in the vicinity of 150-200 damage a strike, while the MNKs hit for about 80-120 a fist, while the rangers did about 100-140 a shot. If anything, Rangers are the ones suffering from this update.

Tell me again how this is broken? Because some players who were already great shot up numbers on Fafnir and Merit Mobs? Get fucking real. Go test this shit on Kirin, Gods, AV, and Jailers. If you still get 2500-3000 damage weaponskills @100% on mobs that aren't VT low-IT then cry for a nerf. 'Till then get the fucking sand out of your vagina and enjoy it while it lasts.

[Amastacia]

2h weapons -- excel at HNM-class monsters
1h weapons / dw -- excel at VT-class and lower monsters

gaem balance.

Remember, balance is not making everyone equal, but rather giving everyone something unique to excel at.

There is much wisdom here. SAM (currently) being better at everything than everyone is not gaem balance. 2h weapon users in general being better in merits, better at endgame, better at repeatable spike damage is not gaem balance.

Why not? All war, drk, drg, sam, mnk, etc. generally do is deal damage, I don't see why mnk being on the same level, or even weaker for once is some huge injustice. You can bring up situational shit like drg/mage or drk/nin tank, but mnk still has it's situational uses as well.

MNK is a bit more one-dimensional, so why should it not do the only thing it does better?

DRK has its (admittedly short) list of useful spells. DRG has its Swiss Army Wyvern. WAR has a goodly number of offensive and defensive abilities that can be situationally handy, plus relatively good weapon skill ratings and WS availability with most all melee weapons (not that useful in practice, I know, but was certainly meant to be on paper). SAMs can pull TP out of their asses on a regular basis and now do nifty extra things too like significantly buff their offensive or defensive abilities pretty much on a whim.

MNKs can punch stuff. Then punch stuff some more. Yes, they have a few useful JAs, most of which are centered around increasing melee damage output. The ones that don't directly improve melee damage are designed to keep a MNK standing longer to keep punching. No Stuns, no Drains, no 6mp Cure IVs, no free WS every couple minutes (depending on merits), no broad range of weapons or situational JAs.

That's not to say that MNK isn't a good job, just that it's even more supremely focused in the realm of melee damage than anything else out there (let's not even start on Chi Blasting, this is 2007, not 2004).

[Priran]

Can someone explain why people think anything should be outdoing MNK in melee damage?

Why not? All war, drk, drg, sam, mnk, etc. generally do is deal damage, I don't see why mnk being on the same level, or even weaker for once is some huge injustice. You can bring up situational shit like drg/mage or drk/nin tank, but mnk still has it's situational uses as well.

DRK, DRG, and SAM aren't gigantic MP sinks. MNKs should be doing more damage than anyone else because they take more damage than anyone else. The only thing MNK can do is deal damage; it can't absorb it or prevent it at all. You can bring up the evasion ranking, Counterstance, and Chakra, but the truth is, the only thing that keeps a MNK from dying is the mob dying first.

[Alisha]

love it, SE basically just said unlearn everything you know when they put this 2h patch in works and while i think its crazy and still might get adjusted <3 how war's who own a ridill say its the twightlightzone now.

Just to add, this is from a guy with a Ridill, and Kclub, and Adaberk and all that noise. ^

Still think Mnk's and the rest are forgetting the DoT advantage they still enjoy.

Maybe when they release the "Occasionally attacks 2-4 times" grip with +5% haste on it, I'll understand the endless bitching. Til then, the playing field just got leveled.

Leveled like a Hiroshima maybe. population learns

haha. right now im wishing kick attacks worked with a staff.

2-handed weapons SHOULD do more damage in both single strikes AND in weaponskills

are you shitting me?(speaking of WS only)thats like saying a dragon punch should do more damage than an ultra combo. both asuran fists and chi blast are underpowered now.

[Sasarai]

Rangers - Averaged between 800-1500 sidewinder/slug shot
Monks - Averaged between 500-1000 asuran fists
Sams/Drks - Averaged between 800-1400 gekko/spinning slash @ 100% TP, 1000-1700 @ 200% TP.

I'd really like to hear a career SAM or DRK explain to me why they think Tachi: Gekko/Spinning Slash should be putting up comparable results to Slugwinder in ANY situation.

[Excalin Garisk]

chain 143

Drg/sam <me>
Drg/whm
73 smn/whm
Brd/nin
Nin/war
Thf/nin

I have not used food this entire time and was hitting 700-1500 penta thrust at about 100 tp each time. catching gravitaion off the thf and nin ws when tp lined up for up to 600 more. no ridils.... maybe not chain 300, but it does show Drgs are starting to keep up in merits a bit better. before I went to the pt I hit a 2837 7 hits landing on a penta on a lesser bird when i wish I had food going. (constant in the area of 1500+)... with angon and zerked up. that is definately a lot higher then it use to be.

[evilpaul]

are you shitting me?(speaking of WS only)thats like saying a dragon punch should do more damage than an ultra combo. both asuran fists and chi blast are underpowered now.

Can Blade: Jin get some love while we're at it too?

[Sekkite]

I notice a distinct lack of non-Rukenshin parses being posted in this thread. Doomsday whines are nice and all and definitely expected, but I wanna see more proof personally.

And no, the Great Sword Taru checking an Aern being low evasion doesn't count. I want actual merit party parses.

[Ishido]

I'm now a former player, so I can say I'm fairly unbiased at this point in time. This patch (from observations in this thread) is a somewhat of a "knee-jerk" reaction to the general dominance of WAR MNK and to an extent NIN in merit parties. Obviously the BtL parse showed that Ruke absolutely dominates with his relic, but he did that before as well (yeah, I realize the insane amounts of damage he is doing now). I'm interested in seeing "AH war" vs "AH sam" parses, as well as well-geared (but not relic) SAMs vs a Ridill WAR.

If I was to guess what developers were doing, I would say that they buffed 2H wielding jobs in an attempt to remove a stigma against them from most players. Next patch (or sooner) they will be reigned in so to speak, putting them in a position worse than they are now, but better than they were before.

One thing that is good that SE did well in my opinion though, is changing balance by buffing, instead of issuing significant nerfs (yeah, I realize pDef changes are somewhat of a nerf).

[Sifer]

you people do realize that those arens parsed as low evasion to anyone with 304 skill near naked anyway right? only difference now is that its the same without the merits. yes the buff is quite powerful but arent 2 handed weapons meant to be for damage? play any other FF game and tell me otherwise.

The jobs that were buffed are jobs that do nothing but damage, unlike the jobs that had other purposes besides damage.

[Godlywargod]

Rangers - Averaged between 800-1500 sidewinder/slug shot
Monks - Averaged between 500-1000 asuran fists
Sams/Drks - Averaged between 800-1400 gekko/spinning slash @ 100% TP, 1000-1700 @ 200% TP.

I'd really like to hear a career SAM or DRK explain to me why they think Tachi: Gekko/Spinning Slash should be putting up comparable results to Slugwinder in ANY situation.

uh before the update 1k wasn't uncommon for sams at least and I can bet it wasn't for drk either.

Normal tachi: gekko prebuff: 800ish double att: 1200ish

dunno about drk I never really exped with them.

On the other hand I've seen rngs hit sidewinder for 500dmg in merrit pts, your saying we should never be able to do over 500dmg on a ws?

And sam at least doesn't outdo a good rng on pierce weak mobs(so like 80% of merrit mobs?)

[VZX]

(yeah, I realize pDef changes are somewhat of a nerf).

Now think about this again, has anyone gather data pDIF distribution when you have capped cRatio pre patch?
if the average accumulates on 2.0, I don't see why it's a nerf when you can actually attain that value post patch

[BerenTebogo]

I retract my previous statement, I'M FUCKING PISSED.

Seriously, where the fuck do I complain, the lower damage caps on lower than VT mobs..fucking, all I do is solo, this gives mobs even more chance to get a TP move off before I kill them even in subtle blow gear.

For fucks sake, I don't care if the 15 year old with a wizard poster above his bed playing DRG with a Cardinal's Vest wants to be a fucking Howitzer, fine, give him his boost, GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY SOLOING ABILITY.


kjrbfaedsktgblkrbsrkh

MAD

MAD MAD MAD

[BRP]

So let me see if I understand this argument.

THF/RNG/BST/NIN/MNK- I wonder if the two-handed adjustments are unfair.
DRK/SAM/DRG- It was unfair before.
THF/RNG/BST/NIN/MNK- Yes, but it isn't a balance.
DRK/SAM/DRG- But it's OK as long as my job benefits from it being unfair.

Did I miss anything?

I didn't see this before, but that would only be the argument against anyone who says "THIS IS THE END OF THE WORLD!!". Pretty much the roles have changed is all. Now is that balanced? Not really, no. Should SE work towards balance? Yes, that would be great! And what if a DRG pre-patch said something like "but 2-hand weapons are pretty weak to your dual wield"? They would get a response very similar to "But it's OK as long as my job benefits from it being unfair." I bet I could even quote it out of some forum users.

Let's hope SE does more adjustments to fix the ever changing balance of this game, but let's not attack people for pointing out irony.

[Damane]

lets change AGI in that way that 1 AGI = -1% delay and +1evasion for 1 handed weapons wwww no need to worry about haste gear... seriously the 1DEX = 1 accuracy shit is way off

and when we allready at that change 1 INT = + 1 magic accuracy and +1 MAB for elemental/dark magic

[Darkyrm]

2h weapons -- excel at HNM-class monsters
1h weapons / dw -- excel at VT-class and lower monsters

gaem balance.

Remember, balance is not making everyone equal, but rather giving everyone something unique to excel at.

Not saying that the update desnt need a mid-ground fix, but saying 2h are for HNM and 1h for VT-class (meriting) its almost like saying to SAM - DRG - DRK dont have the rights to merit and dont deserve a fix.

And in these days where more and more HNM fights are zerged the 2h weapons doesnt really excel that much.

2h should get spike ws damage and 1h should be able to offset that with dot damage, thats real game balance.

[Flarega]

2h weapons -- excel at HNM-class monsters
1h weapons / dw -- excel at VT-class and lower monsters

gaem balance.

Remember, balance is not making everyone equal, but rather giving everyone something unique to excel at.

Not saying that the update desnt need a mid-ground fix, but saying 2h are for HNM and 1h for VT-class (meriting) its almost like saying to SAM - DRG - DRK dont have the rights to merit and dont deserve a fix.

And in these days where more and more HNM fights are zerged the 2h weapons doesnt really excel that much.

2h should get spike ws damage and 1h should be able to offset that with dot damage, thats real game balance.

End thread.

[archibaldcrane]

I wouldn't mind much of this if I could strap one of my variety of level 37 thief subjobs that aren't ninja on, not use dual wield, and get the bonuses that the rest of the non-dual-wielding-or-martial-artsing jobs get.

Force me to play THF/WAR again (like I did 1-74) SE - I'll gladly fucking do it if you make it worth my while. 2handers didn't suck compared to war/nin, nin/war, mnk, and thf/nin because 2handers sucked, it's because dual wield and martial arts (and utsusemi) are awesome. Honestly - I don't even like dual wielding - give me a reason not to and I wont, I swear. Hell, give a warrior a reason not to - I'd love to see some single-axe warriors around, might be fun (and BST would rejoice).

Theorize all you want about why it's the case (wielding two weapons at once is cumbersome, and the extent to which strength and dexterity help you suffer because of this) or whatever. I want a piece of the action, and I'll gladly pick up a shield to get it.

[Alistaire]

I wonder if they count AV as wielding a 2h weapon and if his dmg/atk/acc got buffed.