The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[superfob]

One thing that is good that SE did well in my opinion though, is changing balance by buffing, instead of issuing significant nerfs (yeah, I realize pDef changes are somewhat of a nerf).

I guess you started playing in 2006? Prior to that, everything SE has done was a nerf.

mulithit WS TP gain nerf (aka penta-spam nerf)
BLM nerf (partial + full resistance)
Ranger nerf
Utsusemi nerf (use to be max one shadow loss)

[Lordwafik]

So few things I ever get to tank anymore. Maybe if we have no plds. My other 2 jobs?.. Thf and Rng.. 'nuff said

Level a support or mage class job then?

In my opinion, there comes a time when you are in a LS that you need to stop leveling jobs just because you like them (Not saying that you are this kind of person), and level something that is different from your other job classes. If you asked me two years ago if I was going to have WHM BLM RDM BRD leveled I'd laugh in your face and call you a retard. Yet here I am, with these jobs leveled. This has made me a much more versatile player and helps my LS more overall because I can fill in the gaps when its needed.

Leveling a job like BRD RDM or COR in your case would only seek to improve your depth as a player.

This is true untill the melee goes super emo because we make them come bard / healer all the time, then cries and cries that we don't love their melee jobs blahblahblah, or tries to guilt us because we always take their mage and never their melee which we don't want. "Waawaa I wanna come blu to everything" "Waawaa I wanna come WAR to everything" "Cut cut I wanna take my DRK to everything" "Nobody appreciates my other jobs". /snooze

I have a bunch o' jobs levelled, I'll come anything, I don't care, even if I'm called RDM or BLM to every single event, or never asked to take my BLU / BST / THF, reallyyyyyy doesn't mean a thing to me. I can't understand the emo melee complex though. If there's already a bunch of strong melee at <event>, inserting your melee self isn't going to help, rather hinder or become a useless cheerleader. I guess to some people, versatile is the period of time between PMS attacks.

Just venting, I'm actually with you on your post

[LD]

Now think about this again, has anyone gather data pDIF distribution when you have capped cRatio pre patch?
if the average accumulates on 2.0, I don't see why it's a nerf when you can actually attain that value post patch

Ironicalli enough before the patch I was working on this. Not to go into a lot of detail, but I was coming up with results that showed certian WS, while having the same cap/range, had fairly distinguishable and different distribution/averages. A large portion of my data was plotting about ~400 regular Scythe hits on bees outside gustaberg to see if the distrubtion matched those of certian WS. I'm at work atm, but when I get home I'll post the average pdif value.

I strongly believe the average was roughly around 2.0 for all weapons. Damage now varys much less than it did a few days ago. When hitting the pdif cap (for non-2H) you are getting consistant 2.0s, as opposed to before where you could hit below or above it. You lose the ability to have slightly higher damage, but you also lose the ability to hit for slighly lower damage.

If that's right, then it isn't so much the pDIF that's the problem, but the acc bonus that allows them to nearly maximize it.

If that's the case, I still think 1H cap should be raised and 2H should be lowered, but not by a great amount. If you lowered 2H pDIF to 2.6~2.8, raised 1H to 2.2~2.4, and maybe the crit cap to 3.4, everything would have a purpose again.

[Coldone]

So few things I ever get to tank anymore. Maybe if we have no plds. My other 2 jobs?.. Thf and Rng.. 'nuff said

Level a support or mage class job then?

In my opinion, there comes a time when you are in a LS that you need to stop leveling jobs just because you like them (Not saying that you are this kind of person), and level something that is different from your other job classes. If you asked me two years ago if I was going to have WHM BLM RDM BRD leveled I'd laugh in your face and call you a retard. Yet here I am, with these jobs leveled. This has made me a much more versatile player and helps my LS more overall because I can fill in the gaps when its needed.

Leveling a job like BRD RDM or COR in your case would only seek to improve your depth as a player.

This is true untill the melee goes super emo because we make them come bard / healer all the time, then cries and cries that we don't love their melee jobs blahblahblah, or tries to guilt us because we always take their mage and never their melee which we don't want. "Waawaa I wanna come blu to everything" "Waawaa I wanna come WAR to everything" "Cut cut I wanna take my DRK to everything" "Nobody appreciates my other jobs". /snooze

I have a bunch o' jobs levelled, I'll come anything, I don't care, even if I'm called RDM or BLM to every single event, or never asked to take my BLU / BST / THF, reallyyyyyy doesn't mean a thing to me. I can't understand the emo melee complex though. If there's already a bunch of strong melee at <event>, inserting your melee self isn't going to help, rather hinder or become a useless cheerleader. I guess to some people, versatile is the period of time between PMS attacks.

Just venting, I'm actually with you on your post

So basically your saying the change is fine and if you don't like it.. lvl a different job. I dunno about you, but my time spent in game isn't 100% spent on events. Probably around 60% ish I would say. And i completely agree on versitility. Though in my case even if I had lots of mage jobs leveled I'd still be going to everything primarly as thf due to being one of only 2 active thfs with TH4. But when not doing events (and during some) everyone has the right to play the jobs they "enjoy", after all we pay to play this game, damn well sure we have every right to want to enjoy it. Some of us have also put a lot of work into the jobs we love to play, and feel a bit cheated when all that work falls by the wayside to other jobs that have a couple million gil to spend on the AH.

I haven't seen too much in data from WARS, DRKS or DRGS post patch.. but from what i've seen first hand from SAMS, they are far stronger than RNG ever was before it was nerfed, and in terms of damage output far greater even than BLM as well.

(For the record, I had been lvling rdm currently 62)

[kuronosan]

You know, while I still don't really have any weight on this board I still believe people just need to shut the fuck up about the update until SE either does something or not.

whaaaaaa multi hit should do more than single hit

It does. But as far as I can tell, people didn't invite much of any job that used 2-handed weapons to merit parties. I've seen hundreds of posts saying "SAM sucks in merit parties" or "DRG sucks in parties" or "DRKs with Krakens are gods" and "PUP is horrible period". Now that none of that is really true anymore, people are up in arms because their dicks are threatened. Yes. That is 90% of what this argument is about. Your dick is in danger of being shortened because other jobs have just as good a shot as being invited as you do now. MNK is not a shitty job, and neither is WAR or NIN. ALL of those jobs still have more utility in the DOT department because of attack frequency. It's just now a well-geared 2-handed player is going to probably do more damage, and an average player is now equal to a semi-well-geared 1-handed player.

Admit it. Most of the people bitching are bitching because of the numbers game and not because they have a sincere argument to offer. There is a small minority that actually knows what they're arguing about and it has NOTHING to do with the damage being done and everything to do with the accuracy of the attacks.

My SAM doesn't have shitty gear and I wasn't coming anywhere close to these 2500 Gekko 2300 Kasha numbers. I averaged between 800 @ 100% (Soboro) and 1700 @ 300% (Onimaru). I was using WAR, I have Overwhelm, and a Brutal Earring/Haub equipped in addition to all my other gear which is all STR+. Better equipped players than I can do more damage than me and RNGs and NINs were still putting up more consistent numbers.

Just stop complaining and play the game. If they 'fix' it, they fix it. If they don't, move on with your life. It's not really worth the hassle.

[Credos]

So few things I ever get to tank anymore. Maybe if we have no plds. My other 2 jobs?.. Thf and Rng.. 'nuff said

Level a support or mage class job then?

In my opinion, there comes a time when you are in a LS that you need to stop leveling jobs just because you like them (Not saying that you are this kind of person), and level something that is different from your other job classes. If you asked me two years ago if I was going to have WHM BLM RDM BRD leveled I'd laugh in your face and call you a retard. Yet here I am, with these jobs leveled. This has made me a much more versatile player and helps my LS more overall because I can fill in the gaps when its needed.

Leveling a job like BRD RDM or COR in your case would only seek to improve your depth as a player.

This is true untill the melee goes super emo because we make them come bard / healer all the time, then cries and cries that we don't love their melee jobs blahblahblah, or tries to guilt us because we always take their mage and never their melee which we don't want. "Waawaa I wanna come blu to everything" "Waawaa I wanna come WAR to everything" "Cut cut I wanna take my DRK to everything" "Nobody appreciates my other jobs". /snooze

I have a bunch o' jobs levelled, I'll come anything, I don't care, even if I'm called RDM or BLM to every single event, or never asked to take my BLU / BST / THF, reallyyyyyy doesn't mean a thing to me. I can't understand the emo melee complex though. If there's already a bunch of strong melee at <event>, inserting your melee self isn't going to help, rather hinder or become a useless cheerleader. I guess to some people, versatile is the period of time between PMS attacks.

Just venting, I'm actually with you on your post

So basically your saying the change is fine and if you don't like it.. lvl a different job. I dunno about you, but my time spent in game isn't 100% spent on events. Probably around 60% ish I would say. And i completely agree on versitility. Though in my case even if I had lots of mage jobs leveled I'd still be going to everything primarly as thf due to being one of only 2 active thfs with TH4. But when not doing events (and during some) everyone has the right to play the jobs they "enjoy", after all we pay to play this game, damn well sure we have every right to want to enjoy it. Some of us have also put a lot of work into the jobs we love to play, and feel a bit cheated when all that work falls by the wayside to other jobs that have a couple million gil to spend on the AH.

I haven't seen too much in data from WARS, DRKS or DRGS post patch.. but from what i've seen first hand from SAMS, they are far stronger than RNG ever was before it was nerfed, and in terms of damage output far greater even than BLM as well.

(For the record, I had been lvling rdm currently 62)

I agree 100% with the posts above; but there is a difference between "your time" and "LS time" in my opinion. When you are playing on a soccer or football team for example, and your coach asks you to play linebacker / sweeper and you typically play Running back / forward, are you going to tell him no because when you are playing with your friends you play the position you want to?

I think that when it comes down to it everyone should be able to play the job that they want to when they are on their own time. But when it comes to events that's an entirely different matter.

As far as melee being emo that they don't get to come as xyz job; that's fine let them be emo. When they are doing things on that job that they don't like coming as, getting gear for that job there should be no complaining.

[LD]

When I get paid millions a year to play BLM, you bet your ass do it without complaint.

This is a VIDEO FUCKING GAME. You are meant to have FUN, not change yourself to satisfy the whims of people you're probably never meet.

[Ploid]

I remember a few drgs that were practically forced to level other jobs. Their drgs were pimped as much as it could be without relics and hecatomb (due to not being able to get into a HNMLS without leveling something like nin). No one seemed to fight for drgs to be un nerfed or bring everyone down to drg's level of stigma. Drgs were pretty good. I had no idea they could do what they do with subjobs until I farmed with one when he tried to unlock a staff ws after being 75 for a while or something. But still they had to do so much work to be as useful as any other job. At least thf could TA and SA at his own effort after assassin. Drgs have to tell people to sata onto them, or get a mage to move to him so he can 2hr jump (never read about their 2hr hate remove ability tests personally). In HNM fights usually, if it take too much work to do the same thing, it's worthless when a easier way of doing things are introduced. Meaning drgs either stick in support role with AF2 helm at fafs or whatever else it's good for (mage count is random and likely to be short).

People that didn't do research on a job before liking it wasted their time when they found out it's not welcomed into hnmls, exp parties, missions, bc's, and such. Mnks, wars, and ninjas can still burn exp like they did before I'm sure. None of those jobs wasted their time.

[Credos]

When I get paid millions a year to play BLM, you bet your ass do it without complaint.

This is a VIDEO FUCKING GAME. You are meant to have FUN, not change yourself to satisfy the whims of people you're probably never meet.

Didn't know that you got paid to play millions on a HS sport either, but anyways.

That's fine if you don't want to change your job to help benefit everyone including yourself, that's your perogative. But keep in mind that if there ever is a shortage of a job that you could have leveled at an event and your sitting there with your thumb up your ass, remember that you could have been doing something a lot more proactive.

[Magewrath]

I'm not sure I see the point in spending 8 hours a day on a job you despise, just so you can spend 30 minutes a day on a job you like.
I see the reasoning behind levelling jobs you don't like but wouldn't personally choose to do it.

[Credos]

I'm not sure I see the point in spending 8 hours a day on a job you despise, just so you can spend 30 minutes a day on a job you like.
I see the reasoning behind levelling jobs you don't like but wouldn't personally choose to do it.

I used to think like this; I was a PLD hardcore, loved everything about the job. Then I decided to level Ninja and appreciated it for everything that PLD -couldn't- do.

In my opinion it's kind of sad if you can't appreciate the differences between jobs when playing them. Not only do you learn about the job you're playing but you also get to see a whole different angle of the game; maybe that's why I haven't quit yet.

[lorcas]

You know, while I still don't really have any weight on this board I still believe people just need to shut the fuck up about the update until SE either does something or not.

whaaaaaa multi hit should do more than single hit

It does. But as far as I can tell, people didn't invite much of any job that used 2-handed weapons to merit parties. I've seen hundreds of posts saying "SAM sucks in merit parties" or "DRG sucks in parties" or "DRKs with Krakens are gods" and "PUP is horrible period". Now that none of that is really true anymore, people are up in arms because their dicks are threatened. Yes. That is 90% of what this argument is about. Your dick is in danger of being shortened because other jobs have just as good a shot as being invited as you do now. MNK is not a shitty job, and neither is WAR or NIN. ALL of those jobs still have more utility in the DOT department because of attack frequency. It's just now a well-geared 2-handed player is going to probably do more damage, and an average player is now equal to a semi-well-geared 1-handed player.

Admit it. Most of the people bitching are bitching because of the numbers game and not because they have a sincere argument to offer. There is a small minority that actually knows what they're arguing about and it has NOTHING to do with the damage being done and everything to do with the accuracy of the attacks.

My SAM doesn't have shitty gear and I wasn't coming anywhere close to these 2500 Gekko 2300 Kasha numbers. I averaged between 800 @ 100% (Soboro) and 1700 @ 300% (Onimaru). I was using WAR, I have Overwhelm, and a Brutal Earring/Haub equipped in addition to all my other gear which is all STR+. Better equipped players than I can do more damage than me and RNGs and NINs were still putting up more consistent numbers.

Just stop complaining and play the game. If they 'fix' it, they fix it. If they don't, move on with your life. It's not really worth the hassle.

I'll admit one thing and one thing only. As a mnk I lost my identity, my purpose in this game. I am equal to all those other jobs that can do a lot more than dealing good damage to things with low defense. That's the only thing we could do, and now everyone and their mothers are doing the same. Chi blast... gimme a break, 1k damage per 3 minutes. Freaking everyone does this now on turtle inside their shell. While nin can still tank and war can do a lot of other things, mnk lost the only thing that they could do... Actually, they didnt lose it. But the fact that everyone can do as much/better than the mnk, then what is the purpose of a mnk? That is what's bugging me as a mnk.

[Magewrath]

I'm not sure I see the point in spending 8 hours a day on a job you despise, just so you can spend 30 minutes a day on a job you like.
I see the reasoning behind levelling jobs you don't like but wouldn't personally choose to do it.

I used to think like this; I was a PLD hardcore, loved everything about the job. Then I decided to level Ninja and appreciated it for everything that PLD -couldn't- do.

In my opinion it's kind of sad if you can't appreciate the differences between jobs when playing them. Not only do you learn about the job you're playing but you also get to see a whole different angle of the game; maybe that's why I haven't quit yet.

#

Oh, I appreciate your point. I was moreso aiming at people that play a job they fundamentally do not wish to play...ever.

I speak to some of these people and you can tell by the way they talk they detest the job, yet have to play it. When it gets to that point...I think the point is lost. I'm not going to harp on about FFXI being 'just a game', but I think we can all agree that it is still 'a game'.

You say you can appreciate the differences between PLD and NIN and that's good, it sounds like you enjoy playing NIN, at least up until a point, so my post isn't really relevant to your situation :D

[VZX]

Now think about this again, has anyone gather data pDIF distribution when you have capped cRatio pre patch?
if the average accumulates on 2.0, I don't see why it's a nerf when you can actually attain that value post patch

Ironicalli enough before the patch I was working on this. Not to go into a lot of detail, but I was coming up with results that showed certian WS, while having the same cap/range, had fairly distinguishable and different distribution/averages. A large portion of my data was plotting about ~400 regular Scythe hits on bees outside gustaberg to see if the distrubtion matched those of certian WS. I'm at work atm, but when I get home I'll post the average pdif value.

I strongly believe the average was roughly around 2.0 for all weapons. Damage now varys much less than it did a few days ago. When hitting the pdif cap (for non-2H) you are getting consistant 2.0s, as opposed to before where you could hit below or above it. You lose the ability to have slightly higher damage, but you also lose the ability to hit for slighly lower damage.

If that's right, then it isn't so much the pDIF that's the problem, but the acc bonus that allows them to nearly maximize it.

If that's the case, I still think 1H cap should be raised and 2H should be lowered, but not by a great amount. If you lowered 2H pDIF to 2.6~2.8, raised 1H to 2.2~2.4, and maybe the crit cap to 3.4, everything would have a purpose again.

I think giving 3.0 max on normal hit for 2 hander is a good potential enough
Even without +1STR => +1 attack rule, their gear already support stacking many attack+, unlike RNG.

Back to pDIF:
Back 1-2 weeks ago while testing blue magic damage, I got distribution value for pDIF=1.25~2.1 range is evenly distributed. My guess for boundary region where pDIF got "stabilized" at 2.0, the min/max value converge, however, still keeps the same average as it used to be.

[Ishido]

One thing that is good that SE did well in my opinion though, is changing balance by buffing, instead of issuing significant nerfs (yeah, I realize pDef changes are somewhat of a nerf).

I guess you started playing in 2006? Prior to that, everything SE has done was a nerf.

mulithit WS TP gain nerf (aka penta-spam nerf)
BLM nerf (partial + full resistance)
Ranger nerf
Utsusemi nerf (use to be max one shadow loss)

Not quite sorry, I played release-2006. Sorry if I have to spell everything out, I was referring to something SE did well with this patch.

There is still a distinct lack of concrete information in this thread.

[Coldone]

One thing that is good that SE did well in my opinion though, is changing balance by buffing, instead of issuing significant nerfs (yeah, I realize pDef changes are somewhat of a nerf).

I guess you started playing in 2006? Prior to that, everything SE has done was a nerf.

mulithit WS TP gain nerf (aka penta-spam nerf)
BLM nerf (partial + full resistance)
Ranger nerf
Utsusemi nerf (use to be max one shadow loss)

Not quite sorry, I played release-2006. Sorry if I have to spell everything out, I was referring to something SE did well with this patch.

There is still a distinct lack of concrete information in this thread.

If you want some more concrete information.. then download the patch and play the game... it gets pretty obvious then.

[Spider-Dan]

I retract my previous statement, I'M FUCKING PISSED.

Seriously, where the fuck do I complain, the lower damage caps on lower than VT mobs..fucking, all I do is solo, this gives mobs even more chance to get a TP move off before I kill them even in subtle blow gear.

How the hell do you consider going from hitting 1.6-2.4 to hitting 2.0 every time a "nerf"?

If anything, it's a buff. Before, where random pDIF = 2.4 and crit = yes converge, 0.4 of your crit bonus (rate+1.0) gets wasted. Now, you have lower highs and higher lows (in exactly equal proportions), but you get full crit rate bonus every time.

[Nagamaki]

Lets say you're killing something with lots of attack buffs (SV, barb drink, just food on something mid level instead of high), and your cRatio is 2.0, right at the old cap.

Prepatch, this would have resulted in hits in the 1.6 - 2.4 range. Now, that's 1.6-2. All hits that would have been over 2 are capped at 2, resulting in an average of around 1.9, not 2.

If your cRatio is above 2.4 then yeah your avg didn't change (in fact since crits will then be automatically 3, it went up a tiny bit), but you're not going to get cRatio of 2.4 on anything that matters without just about every buff there is at the same time.

But from 1.6 cRatio to near 2.4 cRatio, there is a slight nerf occuring because of the 2.0 cap, unless pdif distribution takes the cap into account so that the average doesn't change. That could be parsed and confirmed/ruled out.

[VZX]

Lets say you're killing something with lots of attack buffs (SV, barb drink, just food on something mid level instead of high), and your cRatio is 2.0, right at the old cap.

Prepatch, this would have resulted in hits in the 1.6 - 2.4 range. Now, that's 1.6-2. All hits that would have been over 2 are capped at 2, resulting in an average of around 1.9, not 2.

If your cRatio is above 2.4 then yeah your avg didn't change (in fact since crits will then be automatically 3, it went up a tiny bit), but you're not going to get cRatio of 2.4 on anything that matters without just about every buff there is at the same time.

But from 1.6 cRatio to near 2.4 cRatio, there is a slight nerf occuring because of the 2.0 cap, unless pdif distribution takes the cap into account so that the average doesn't change. That could be parsed and confirmed/ruled out.

What is this magic number of cRatio of 2.4? I thought it's capped at 2.0 and was giving you number 1.6~2.4 range

brb, poking some bunnies to see something
EDIT:
I'm pretty sure min=max=2.0 when you have capped pDIF
Kirschy tested prior the updaate that pDIF distribution is around 2.0 at cRatio=2.0
Also, I tested from 52~53 casts blue magic spell, whose pDIF is around 1.25~2.1 before this update, have even distribution on this range

[Khamsin]

Well, if they were to leave the damage formulas alone, then the least they could do is allow dual wielders to hit more often and gain TP faster. Maybe improve the delay reduction from Dual Wield traits and simultaneously remove the -TP nerf from Dual Wield? That could fix dual wield.