The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[fantasticdan]

DRG has its Swiss Army Wyvern.

That's subjob dependent, a drg/mage obviously shouldn't be able to keep up with a mnk/war on a neutral mob, but a drg/war or drg/sam can't do anything except deal damage, they should be on par, and drg [img]should[/img] have a pretty significant advantage against weak to piercing mobs, just like mnk does against those weak to blunt.

And pointing out that sam has defensive abilities is kind of dumb, since so does mnk (counter/counterstance, chakra, etc.). It's not like sams are tanking anything, unlike mnks in salvage. Sam also can't shoot lasers at physical resistant mobs.

DRK, DRG, and SAM aren't gigantic MP sinks. MNKs should be doing more damage than anyone else because they take more damage than anyone else. The only thing MNK can do is deal damage; it can't absorb it or prevent it at all. You can bring up the evasion ranking, Counterstance, and Chakra, but the truth is, the only thing that keeps a MNK from dying is the mob dying first.

The reason a mnk/war used to take more damage than everyone else, is because they dealt more damage than everyone else, enough so to pull hate passed other dd's damage AND provoke/flash/etc on top of that. Looks like this problem solved itself!

[aurik]

DRG has its Swiss Army Wyvern.

That's subjob dependent, a drg/mage obviously shouldn't be able to keep up with a mnk/war on a neutral mob, but a drg/war or drg/sam can't do anything except deal damage, they should be on par, and drg [img]should[/img] have a pretty significant advantage against weak to piercing mobs, just like mnk does against those weak to blunt.

No, drg/war should be slightly weaker because they have the option to do something else, whereas monk pretty much has no other options. Hey guys a rdm/war with silencing potions can't do anything but deal damage, they should do as much damage as samurai, right?

It's not like sams are tanking anything, unlike mnks in salvage.

Sams will be tanking stuff, you're just too shortsighted to see it.

[Krelian]

Based on how it was worded, I think the dev team had a pretty good idea what would happen after the patch. Surely they tested it on the test server. With that in mind, I don't think they will 'fix' something that isn't broken. I think further job changes will be made in the future, but not to reverse this. It certainly wasn't fair before, I could punch harder than a low scythe or gkt hit, and get in 4-7 attacks before they could go again. Not to mention, missing with the big delay weapons was devastating for the next wait round. I never broke 1200 asuran with MNK on birds before the patch, so 1700 etc is not much higher. Also, a comparison of DRG/WAR SAM/WAR DRK/WAR can not be compared to MNK/NIN in a parse, compare it to MNK/WAR. I'm wondering if DRG/SAM/DRK now need to sub THF/NIN or will they be total MP sinks after a weapon skill. The problem is, in a merit party, MNK/WAR/NIN are still gonna be the tanks, just from the dot standpoint, so a MNK can't really sub WAR unless they want to eat all the MP or just die from lack of curing. Although, I have seen MNK/WAR's before the patch not be able to take hate =).

[superfob]

No, drg/war should be slightly weaker because they have the option to do something else, whereas monk pretty much has no other options. Hey guys a rdm/war with silencing potions can't do anything but deal damage, they should do as much damage as samurai, right?

Only do one thing argument always fails because you can always point to rangers.

[aurik]

No, drg/war should be slightly weaker because they have the option to do something else, whereas monk pretty much has no other options. Hey guys a rdm/war with silencing potions can't do anything but deal damage, they should do as much damage as samurai, right?

Only do one thing argument always fails because you can always point to rangers.

Rangers have something that makes them unique as far as DD goes: they can hit stuff gasp at range. They can stand out of AoE range and deal damage. They also get status ammunition: demon arrows, acid bolts, kaburas, etc. Rangers do need a damage buff, they lag way too far behind right now, but to say that they don't bring different and unique tools to the table is wrong.

[kuronosan]

I'll admit one thing and one thing only. As a mnk I lost my identity, my purpose in this game. I am equal to all those other jobs that can do a lot more than dealing good damage to things with low defense. That's the only thing we could do, and now everyone and their mothers are doing the same. Chi blast... gimme a break, 1k damage per 3 minutes. Freaking everyone does this now on turtle inside their shell. While nin can still tank and war can do a lot of other things, mnk lost the only thing that they could do... Actually, they didnt lose it. But the fact that everyone can do as much/better than the mnk, then what is the purpose of a mnk? That is what's bugging me as a mnk.

What identity? What purpose? Do people invite SAMs specifically to fight demons? DRKs to fight Arcane? DRGs to fight Dragons? No. So nobody invited MNK just so they could stand there and Chi Blast or punch shit.

You're a MNK. You have fists. You can deal blunt damage quicker than any other job in the game, and if need be you can stand still for 3 minutes and throw out 1000-2000 damage with a job ability that counts as non-elemental magic damage. You know that on Jailer of Temperance last night our sole MNK did pretty much all the damage to it? And when it was in slashing mode we still didn't do as much damage as the MNK did. The only numbers that were higher were our weaponskill numbers.

Again. Stop complaining. Unless your purpose was to get 30k/hr on meriting so you could max out your merits and lot on Salvage gear, you aren't losing anything.

[Priran]

DRK, DRG, and SAM aren't gigantic MP sinks. MNKs should be doing more damage than anyone else because they take more damage than anyone else. The only thing MNK can do is deal damage; it can't absorb it or prevent it at all. You can bring up the evasion ranking, Counterstance, and Chakra, but the truth is, the only thing that keeps a MNK from dying is the mob dying first.

The reason a mnk/war used to take more damage than everyone else, is because they dealt more damage than everyone else, enough so to pull hate passed other dd's damage AND provoke/flash/etc on top of that. Looks like this problem solved itself!

MNK dies all the fucking time because its abilities in anything aside from melee offense are so far atrophied as to be nonexistent. I just ate a 1200 Chomp Rush and died. Looks like you're full of shit!

[Sekkite]

I notice a distinct lack of non-Rukenshin parses being posted in this thread. Doomsday whines are nice and all and definitely expected, but I wanna see more proof personally.

And no, the Great Sword Taru checking an Aern being low evasion doesn't count. I want actual merit party parses.

[aurik]

I'll admit one thing and one thing only. As a mnk I lost my identity, my purpose in this game. I am equal to all those other jobs that can do a lot more than dealing good damage to things with low defense. That's the only thing we could do, and now everyone and their mothers are doing the same. Chi blast... gimme a break, 1k damage per 3 minutes. Freaking everyone does this now on turtle inside their shell. While nin can still tank and war can do a lot of other things, mnk lost the only thing that they could do... Actually, they didnt lose it. But the fact that everyone can do as much/better than the mnk, then what is the purpose of a mnk? That is what's bugging me as a mnk.

What identity? What purpose? Do people invite SAMs specifically to fight demons? DRKs to fight Arcane? DRGs to fight Dragons? No. So nobody invited MNK just so they could stand there and Chi Blast or punch shit.

Monk's purpose was to be the best DoT on T-VT class monsters. It excels at literally nothing else--it blink-tanks worse than a nin, holds hate worse than a paladin, does far less WS damage than a samurai, etc.

People invite SAMs specifically for the TP-efficient damage. People invite DRKs for the ignore-defense property of Souleater. Drg has its wyvern which allows it to support-heal. Monk now is just a has-been-in-the-making.

[Priran]

The reason you're not seeing any parses is because DvsParse is broken.

[superfob]

No, drg/war should be slightly weaker because they have the option to do something else, whereas monk pretty much has no other options. Hey guys a rdm/war with silencing potions can't do anything but deal damage, they should do as much damage as samurai, right?

Only do one thing argument always fails because you can always point to rangers.

Rangers have something that makes them unique as far as DD goes: they can hit stuff gasp at range. They can stand out of AoE range and deal damage. They also get status ammunition: demon arrows, acid bolts, kaburas, etc. Rangers do need a damage buff, they lag way too far behind right now, but to say that they don't bring different and unique tools to the table is wrong.

Monks have chi blast, counter, chakara, doesn't mean their ranged attack, tanks or healers. I'm sure there are h2h weapons with status attributes. Heck rangers can only do light skillchains(outside of relic gun) while monks can do light and darkness. Besides that doesn't make them unique cause any job with bow/xbow can use those same status effects or attack at range *gasp*.

RNG/WAR has infinitely less survivability than a MNK/WAR with /WAR subjobs both maximizing DD capabilities.

[underscore]

its hard to find a ridill war to parse against because they all want to try /sam with gaxe or have drk/drg/sam lvled, hell i did /nin yesterday in a merit for the hell of it and still used fortitude axe

[ringthree]

People invite SAMs specifically for the TP-efficient damage. People invite DRKs for the ignore-defense property of Souleater. Drg has its wyvern which allows it to support-heal. Monk now is just a has-been-in-the-making.

LOL. Just LOL. I totally remember getting all those invites for support-healing!

[Sekkite]

The reason you're not seeing any parses is because DvsParse is broken.

Meh. Until it's fixed, I'll still consider most of these whines to be unfounded.

[layoneil]

People invite SAMs specifically for the TP-efficient damage. People invite DRKs for the ignore-defense property of Souleater. Drg has its wyvern which allows it to support-heal. Monk now is just a has-been-in-the-making.

good for you?

i can't believe people would trump out statements like this to support your point as if they were true.

people invite DRGs to support-heal never.

people only invite DRKs for "the ignore-defense property of Souleater" when they have a weapon that cost millions. and they only get invited for a very short period of time.

people invite SAMs specifically for the "TP-efficient damage" when they can't get enough SMNs or when time is of the essence, which is another slim to none situation.

guess what, now MNKs can get invited for Hundred Fisting stuff as often as DRKs without Krakens were invited for their Souleater. if you think DRKs and DRGs were okay the way they were used in the past, you should be content with the way MNK will be used from now on.

not that i personally think it's as doom and gloom as you say, my LS is still bringing MNKs to Einherjar for when we get 18 BLM skeletons. we're still bringing them to Dynamis and Limbus and Bahamut V2.

[Coldone]

Based on how it was worded, I think the dev team had a pretty good idea what would happen after the patch. Surely they tested it on the test server.

I'm sure they tested AV on the test server too.. we all know how that worked out.

[aurik]

No, drg/war should be slightly weaker because they have the option to do something else, whereas monk pretty much has no other options. Hey guys a rdm/war with silencing potions can't do anything but deal damage, they should do as much damage as samurai, right?

Only do one thing argument always fails because you can always point to rangers.

Rangers have something that makes them unique as far as DD goes: they can hit stuff gasp at range. They can stand out of AoE range and deal damage. They also get status ammunition: demon arrows, acid bolts, kaburas, etc. Rangers do need a damage buff, they lag way too far behind right now, but to say that they don't bring different and unique tools to the table is wrong.

Monks have chi blast, counter, chakara, doesn't mean their ranged attack, tanks or healers. I'm sure there are h2h weapons with status attributes. Heck rangers can only do light skillchains(outside of relic gun) while monks can do light and darkness. Besides that doesn't make them unique cause any job with bow/xbow can use those same status effects or attack at range *gasp*.

RNG/WAR has infinitely less survivability than a MNK/WAR with /WAR subjobs both maximizing DD capabilities.

Aside from stun jamadhar NQ, monks can't use status H2H, and lose their TP when switching weapons anyhow. A ranger can proficiently switch to an acid bolt and then move back to holy bolts, and then swap in a stronger physical bolt for weaponskills.

I wouldn't complain so much if counter, chakra, and chi blast made a significant difference.

*Chi blast is essentially worthless as a DD tool; people can sleep-TP and 2H WS for more damage than it, and bringing a summoner with diabolos or garuda is a strictly better use of a slot.
*Chakra is 200-300hp every 5 minutes, hardly anything to write home about.
*Counter/cstance is for most practical situations a zero-sum game where you take half as many hits for twice as much damage (and then get oneshotted by a WS), and doesn't stack up to 3e on samurai or the extra shadow for ninjas on ni.

Unlike meditate, souleater, and healing/statuscure breath, none of these skills serve to give monk a unique role anywhere outside of fighting lots of T-VT monsters.

[Priran]

People invite SAMs specifically for the TP-efficient damage. People invite DRKs for the ignore-defense property of Souleater. Drg has its wyvern which allows it to support-heal. Monk now is just a has-been-in-the-making.

LOL. Just LOL. I totally remember getting all those invites for support-healing!

I bet you've never soloed DRG/WHM before!

[HadesBothari]

I bet you've never soloed DRG/WHM before!

Deleted: Nvm (toned it down.. was just pissed of by the solo arguement)
Don't bring solo into this. Any job can solo now (just level BST and sub it)

[aurik]

People invite SAMs specifically for the TP-efficient damage. People invite DRKs for the ignore-defense property of Souleater. Drg has its wyvern which allows it to support-heal. Monk now is just a has-been-in-the-making.

good for you?

i can't believe people would trump out statements like this to support your point as if they were true.

people invite DRGs to support-heal never.

Don't need invites to solo. People invited BSTs for anything never, but they were hardly broken pre-MPK patch.

people only invite DRKs for "the ignore-defense property of Souleater" when they have a weapon that cost millions. and they only get invited for a very short period of time.

SE is great damage with dual daggers or with DBx3 and a scythe. Kraken is the best for the job but its not like the ability fails to work if you don't have it equipped.

people invite SAMs specifically for the "TP-efficient damage" when they can't get enough SMNs or when time is of the essence, which is another slim to none situation.

Maybe in your linkshell; 2H dd rotations are common in other shells where people don't want to bore mobs to death with SMNs.

guess what, now MNKs can get invited for Hundred Fisting stuff as often as DRKs without Krakens were invited for their Souleater. if you think DRKs and DRGs were okay the way they were used in the past, you should be content with the way MNK will be used from now on.

I guess I missed the patch note that says Hundred Fists is now on a 5 minute timer.

not that i personally think it's as doom and gloom as you say, my LS is still bringing MNKs to Einherjar for when we get 18 BLM skeletons. we're still bringing them to Dynamis and Limbus and Bahamut V2.

You'd be better off bringing samurai for skeletons, monks only get a 12% bonus. You'd be better off bringing samurai for dynamis and limbus, monks will be limited to 2.0 pdif. You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.