The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[underscore]

http://www.lildevilproductions.net/news.php

is the parser i'm using now. it takes a little getting used to and isnt updated for the patch, but it works so i'll take it. just uncheck the "Enable Timer Sounds" under options so it doesnt beep after every mob
note: if you're doing multiple parses in a day rename the exported html because it just puts the date as the name, i ended up overwriting like 3 parses before i realized =(

[Tomiko]

people invite DRGs to support-heal never.

Pre-patch, I actually did get asked to come Drg/Whm and support heal in a normal party.

From what I remember the party was:
Rdm/Whm
Brd/Whm
Drg/Whm
Bst/Nin (friend who made the party)
War/Nin
Thf/Nin (I think)

Granted it only happened once and had enough /nin to make it work decently, it still happened.

[Nagamaki]

With proper support (just like MNK), there's no real reason SAM can't be main tank for Salvage (and other things) the way MNK generally is used. The changes are so massive that there is no reason a SAM won't be able to hold hate while taking limited damage, if you doubt this, that's your problem.

MNK+SAM was already a ridiculously efficient melee pair for that, now it'll be even better and if no further adjustments occur, the old methods will simply phase out.

Two-handers using completely useless (now) amounts of acc and sticking to an obsolete playstyle aren't going to do amazing things, people speak of "its only a couple days old" like somehow two-handers will become less efficient as they adjust and one-handers will start doing better... Unless there are further adjustments, two-handers will adjust and perform better, not worse.

[layoneil]

Don't need invites to solo. People invited BSTs for anything never, but they were hardly broken pre-MPK patch.

that'd make sense if DRGs soloed at the rate of BST pre-MPK patch, they didn't.

SE is great damage with dual daggers or with DBx3 and a scythe. Kraken is the best for the job but its not like the ability fails to work if you don't have it equipped.

and DB existed for how long? and how many healers do you need to support that?

Maybe in your linkshell; 2H dd rotations are common in other shells where people don't want to bore mobs to death with SMNs.

what does that have to do with SAMs being easily replaceable?

I guess I missed the patch note that says Hundred Fists is now on a 5 minute timer.

it doesn't matter how often they are used as long as they are used for something, that was your whole argument for DRGs, DRKs and SAMs pre-patch. the length of time spent doing said actions is irrelevant as long as those actions are done. this is your argument, not mine.

You'd be better off bringing samurai for skeletons, monks only get a 12% bonus. You'd be better off bringing samurai for dynamis and limbus, monks will be limited to 2.0 pdif.

parses please? and as long as you're still winning Einherjar, clearing city dynamis zones, getting to the top of Limbus zones and getting the chip with around 6 people, what does it matter if you're better off or not?

You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.

and i thought you knew everything there is to know about MNK. ours don't use wings and most don't Hundred Fist on most runs, they just go in, punch and WS. if SAMs have to WS and Wing to replace a MNK, that's much farther from being better off than how my LS did it last Saturday. how do you suggest we do 3-6 of them in one run?

[NynJa]

With proper support (just like MNK), there's no real reason SAM can't be main tank for Salvage (and other things) the way MNK generally is used.

Weapon
Abilities
Subjob

Strong WS, Seigan-Third Eye, Voke, Berserk


Its allready been considered in my salvage runs.

[aurik]

Don't need invites to solo. People invited BSTs for anything never, but they were hardly broken pre-MPK patch.

that'd make sense if DRGs soloed at the rate of BST pre-MPK patch, they didn't.

Well then they should have changed Dragoon to be better at what they were designed to be uniquely good at, instead of just making them better than the T-VT killer at killing T-VTs. Game balance is making each job good in a unique way.

SE is great damage with dual daggers or with DBx3 and a scythe. Kraken is the best for the job but its not like the ability fails to work if you don't have it equipped.

and DB existed for how long? and how many healers do you need to support that?

Dual daggers have existed for how long? Needing healing makes SE bad?

Maybe in your linkshell; 2H dd rotations are common in other shells where people don't want to bore mobs to death with SMNs.

what does that have to do with SAMs being easily replaceable?

SAM was still the best at the task.

I guess I missed the patch note that says Hundred Fists is now on a 5 minute timer.

it doesn't matter how often they are used as long as they are used for something, that was your whole argument for DRGs, DRKs and SAMs pre-patch. the length of time spent doing said actions is irrelevant as long as those actions are done. this is your argument, not mine.

No, my argument is that as long as they excel at something unique, the game is well balanced. Drg, Drk, Sam already excelled at something unique. The fact that nobody used them for those purposes should have been remedied by making them better at those purposes, or making those purposes more attractive, not by taking another job's bread and butter and making them excel at that.

You'd be better off bringing samurai for skeletons, monks only get a 12% bonus. You'd be better off bringing samurai for dynamis and limbus, monks will be limited to 2.0 pdif.

parses please?

It's called critical thinking.

and as long as you're still winning Einherjar, clearing city dynamis zones, getting to the top of Limbus zones and getting the chip with around 6 people, what does it matter if you're better off or not?

You could already do this stuff with sam, drg, drk, so using this logic this change was completely unnecessary.

You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.

and i thought you knew everything there is to know about MNK. ours don't use wings and most don't Hundred Fist on most runs, they just go in, punch and WS. if SAMs have to WS and Wing to replace a MNK, that's much farther from being better off than how my LS did it last Saturday. how do you suggest we do 3-6 of them in one run?

Samurai is going to outdmg mnk on baha straight up without the use of med/2hours as well, so regardless, Samurai is a better choice.

[ringthree]

People invite SAMs specifically for the TP-efficient damage. People invite DRKs for the ignore-defense property of Souleater. Drg has its wyvern which allows it to support-heal. Monk now is just a has-been-in-the-making.

good for you?

i can't believe people would trump out statements like this to support your point as if they were true.

people invite DRGs to support-heal never.

Don't need invites to solo. People invited BSTs for anything never, but they were hardly broken pre-MPK patch.

God, this is rich, so rich! Thank you for letting the other poor jobs solo, kind MNK!

Let me get this straight: You are ready to defend the argument that a DRG's ability to solo was equal to... no, how about close... no, how about in the same ballpark... no, how about in the same universe as a MNK's role in a party prior to this patch?

The comparison to a BST is near hilarious for me.

Let them eat cake, right?

*Deep Breath*

I don't want to start a flame war or anything, so I will offer you an alternative point of view to help you create a context for which you might review your own comments.

I understand the essence of what you are saying; in that if everyone is closer in damage then it decreases the specialty of MNK. The problem I think you are missing is that the specialties that you are assigning to the other competing jobs where nothing more than an afterthought to 99% of players that were not of that job. To use them now as a defense for feelings of inadequacy comes across as very disingenuous and hubris of the highest degree.

Honestly, you could easily add Burst/Chi-blasting to that list of specialties and not blink an eye. Each job has some nice little tweak that can be used for special occasions, but to say they define the job in some way that MNK could not be defined shows a complete lack of understand for those other jobs and a really myopic view of other players.

[Darkevolution]

You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.

and i thought you knew everything there is to know about MNK. ours don't use wings and most don't Hundred Fist on most runs, they just go in, punch and WS. if SAMs have to WS and Wing to replace a MNK, that's much farther from being better off than how my LS did it last Saturday. how do you suggest we do 3-6 of them in one run? Samurai is going to outdmg mnk on baha straight up without the use of med/2hours as well, so regardless, Samurai is a better choice.

What sort of unique dynamic would you add to mnk then ? The only logical thing I can think of is make a healing aspec like White Mnk in FFTA, other than that maybe even better tanking abillities (besides guard, counter, dodge, -phys dmg)?

[aurik]

I missed the point

My point is, instead of making dragoons better than monks at what monks specialize in, they should have made dragoons better/more useful at what dragoons specialize in.

[aurik]

You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.

and i thought you knew everything there is to know about MNK. ours don't use wings and most don't Hundred Fist on most runs, they just go in, punch and WS. if SAMs have to WS and Wing to replace a MNK, that's much farther from being better off than how my LS did it last Saturday. how do you suggest we do 3-6 of them in one run? Samurai is going to outdmg mnk on baha straight up without the use of med/2hours as well, so regardless, Samurai is a better choice.

What sort of unique dynamic would you add to mnk then ? The only logical thing I can think of is make a healing aspec like White Mnk in FFTA, other than that maybe even better tanking abillities (besides guard, counter, dodge, -phys dmg)?

Monk already had a unique dynamic: it was the best, purest physical DD. Great physical damage anything T-VT, without the frills.

[Priran]

Honestly, you could easily add Burst/Chi-blasting to that list of specialties and not blink an eye.

I think you mean Boost? Diabolos does Chi Blasting better than MNK, with less of a headache and a larger margin of error, and without any special equipment.

[ringthree]

With proper support (just like MNK), there's no real reason SAM can't be main tank for Salvage (and other things) the way MNK generally is used. The changes are so massive that there is no reason a SAM won't be able to hold hate while taking limited damage, if you doubt this, that's your problem.

I was also thinking of that, and I hope it could be true, but I have my doubts. MNK I believe still has a distinct advantage over SAM because of combat skill cap differences and the way Seigan works. Seigen could only be used in emergencies because it would ruin recast timers, and SAM does not have equal skill in evasion, or have many of the other things that help MNK to tank like CS, Guard, high HP, etc.

I am not saying it can't be done, just that I doubt it would be anywhere as efficient as MNK tanking.

[Darkevolution]

You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.

and i thought you knew everything there is to know about MNK. ours don't use wings and most don't Hundred Fist on most runs, they just go in, punch and WS. if SAMs have to WS and Wing to replace a MNK, that's much farther from being better off than how my LS did it last Saturday. how do you suggest we do 3-6 of them in one run? Samurai is going to outdmg mnk on baha straight up without the use of med/2hours as well, so regardless, Samurai is a better choice.

What sort of unique dynamic would you add to mnk then ? The only logical thing I can think of is make a healing aspec like White Mnk in FFTA, other than that maybe even better tanking abillities (besides guard, counter, dodge, -phys dmg)?

Monk already had a unique dynamic: it was the best, purest physical DD. Great physical damage anything T-VT, without the frills.

So your saying revert back to make mnk the best pure DD then? I don't see the point since mnk is already one of the best DD and still is...

[aurik]

Honestly, you could easily add Burst/Chi-blasting to that list of specialties and not blink an eye.

I think you mean Boost? Diabolos does Chi Blasting better than MNK, with less of a headache and a larger margin of error, and without any special equipment.

And with the ability to become garuda, fenrir, leviathan or simply use the extremely large mp pool for cures. I am so glad monk can poorly emulate one aspect of what summoner excels at.

[Spider-Dan]

Lets say you're killing something with lots of attack buffs (SV, barb drink, just food on something mid level instead of high), and your cRatio is 2.0, right at the old cap.

Prepatch, this would have resulted in hits in the 1.6 - 2.4 range. Now, that's 1.6-2. All hits that would have been over 2 are capped at 2, resulting in an average of around 1.9, not 2.

Um, no. It's now 2.0-2.0, resulting in an average of... 2.

http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/1h-pdif.jpg
This is why the complaining is so stupid.

[aurik]

You'd be better off bringing samurai to Bahamut V2, meikyo with a wing and meditate is going to deal a lot better damage a lot faster than hundred fists.

and i thought you knew everything there is to know about MNK. ours don't use wings and most don't Hundred Fist on most runs, they just go in, punch and WS. if SAMs have to WS and Wing to replace a MNK, that's much farther from being better off than how my LS did it last Saturday. how do you suggest we do 3-6 of them in one run? Samurai is going to outdmg mnk on baha straight up without the use of med/2hours as well, so regardless, Samurai is a better choice.

What sort of unique dynamic would you add to mnk then ? The only logical thing I can think of is make a healing aspec like White Mnk in FFTA, other than that maybe even better tanking abillities (besides guard, counter, dodge, -phys dmg)?

Monk already had a unique dynamic: it was the best, purest physical DD. Great physical damage anything T-VT, without the frills.

So your saying revert back to make mnk the best pure DD then? I don't see the point since mnk is already one of the best DD and still is...

"One of", great. So you can be a monk and be one of the best DDs in merit and very little else, or you can be SAM or DRK and be one of the best DDs in merit and also useful on HNM.

Pre-patch monks could easily compete in merit parties even without peak gear, but the downside is that they weren't so good at...well...most of anything. It took a lot of work to tank as monk, and SA-WS on hnm? SAM was leagues ahead of them.

[moguri]

and SAM does not have equal skill in evasion, or have many of the other things that help MNK to tank like CS, Guard, high HP, etc.

SAM has equal evasion skill, just sayin

[aurik]

Lets say you're killing something with lots of attack buffs (SV, barb drink, just food on something mid level instead of high), and your cRatio is 2.0, right at the old cap.

Prepatch, this would have resulted in hits in the 1.6 - 2.4 range. Now, that's 1.6-2. All hits that would have been over 2 are capped at 2, resulting in an average of around 1.9, not 2.

Um, no. It's now 2.0-2.0, resulting in an average of... 2.

image

This is why the complaining is so stupid.

cRatio > 2.4 in that screenshot, not 2.0

[Beckwin]

Oh no, DRG is kinda arguably better at killing lolibri than MNK now, big fucking deal. And it's kind of funny to be "zomg countertank revolution" one day and then the next pretend that it never happened.

[ringthree]

I missed the point

My point is, instead of making dragoons better than monks at what monks specialize in, they should have made dragoons better/more useful at what dragoons specialize in.

I don't think you should go around accusing people of missing points. I believe you fundamentally don't understand the depth of the issues with your previous statements about the other jobs that are now competitive damage-wise to your MNK.

I am glad that you think the way to fix the difference in the massive imbalance in damage between the jobs was to improve their specialization, but honestly, I don't think doing anything besides raising their damage was going to do anything to fix that.

The thing you are completely missing here is that NIN, WAR and MNK almost exclusively got invites, no amount of tweaking to the specialty of the other jobs was going to change that. When it comes to merits, end-game events, whatever, people want efficiency. More XP/hour, killing Fafnir faster, etc. The only way to fix that was to fix the damage difference. The specialty that you say the other jobs had were nothing more than the window dressing that Boost/Chi-blasting is, and even making them resounding better would not have increased their invite rates if it did not increase their DoT. A plethora of other jobs (BLM and SMN come to mind) are still shining examples of this issue.