The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[NynJa]

ok. (personally I think whitemage has endurance issues - similar to how summoner is starting to get left behind in the faster game we have today) but I think SE hasn't adjusted it yet because whm isn't so far behind as to be obsolete.

RDM is leaps and bounds over white mage and um pretty much every job. RDM/NIN is just about the best tank you can get in end game battles where you're fighting 1 mob for a extended period of time. Also, no other job can do what Avesta on his red. RDM can do a WHM's job just as well and a lot of times better. I can go on, but I'll just say the 2 jobs don't even compare.

Untill you do all events with one whm, and have all your healers go RDM, you obviously have no place to speak on this topic.

[Talisien]

You've already broken the holy trinity by citing 5 different tasks. Way to prove my point. We can haggle over which job belongs where later.

Oh dammit all, I edited out the part where I say "EQ is old hat, the trinity mention was short hand for define job by function, not method." But then again since you brought up EQ immediately, you know that, and you know that's why the holy trinity was coined in the first place -- because different classes can overlap in FUNCTION, if not method (blink tank v. pally tank).

[Stolin]

Yes we all bring RDMs to main-heal at wyrms, right?

Maybe not heal, but tank them? hell yea.

PS:They heal in a wyrm fight just fine.

[Amele]

(I'm a whitemage for the record)

there's the other side of it. I don't use avesta to judge rdm anymore than I use ruke to judge sam.

if ruke was representative of samurai, there'd never have been a 2h buff lol.

as for whm v. rdm. give me enough of an mp efficiency trait/spell/JA to keep *just* me in mp forever (like a redmage) and I think whm would be set as the 'pure healer/support' and rdm would be set as 'support/healer'.

[Stolin]

Untill you do all events with one whm, and have all your healers go RDM, you obviously have no place to speak on this topic.

You have no idea what you're talking about lol.

[aurik]

Yes we all bring RDMs to main-heal at wyrms, right?

Maybe not heal, but tank them? hell yea.

PS:They heal in a wyrm fight just fine.

We're comparing healing power, not tanking power, and I'm sure your tanks love your red mages and their cure IVs a lot. Must be fun waiting out Ouryu's petra to.

[HadesBothari]

We're comparing healing power, not tanking power, and I'm sure your tanks love your red mages and their cure IVs a lot. Must be fun waiting out Ouryu's petra to.

Why aurik.. i just though you said that each job had have its unique role. I didnt know rdm's unique role was healing.

[Stolin]

We're comparing healing power, not tanking power, and I'm sure your tanks love your red mages and their cure IVs a lot. Must be fun waiting out Ouryu's petra to.

Why didn't you say you meant ouryu? Sure a white mage is invaluble there.

[aurik]

We're comparing healing power, not tanking power, and I'm sure your tanks love your red mages and their cure IVs a lot. Must be fun waiting out Ouryu's petra to.

Why aurik.. i just though you said that each job had have its unique role. I didnt know rdm's unique role was healing.

Red mage does excel in something unique. While it can perform as a healer, though not as well as a whm for the most part, it excels at debuffing with spell effects. Oh and let's not forget refresh.

[aurik]

We're comparing healing power, not tanking power, and I'm sure your tanks love your red mages and their cure IVs a lot. Must be fun waiting out Ouryu's petra to.

Why didn't you say you meant ouryu? Sure a white mage is invaluble there.

Ouryu is a wyrm last I checked.

[HadesBothari]

You see.. what i'm getting at, is that, while you said RDM and WHM were balanced (and by that you mean their "healing ability"). When it comes to balancing DRG and MNK you think what should define balance is not damage dealing but the other "things it excels in".

[NynJa]

Untill you do all events with one whm, and have all your healers go RDM, you obviously have no place to speak on this topic.

You have no idea what you're talking about lol.

No, I think you are the one who has no fucking clue what youre talking about.

Regen 3 ?
Cure4 spam from a job that doesnt exactly wear a bunch of enmity down (and if they did, they would lose a lot of their MP, and rdm's arent renoun for their MP pool) ?

[Stolin]

Ouryu is a wyrm last I checked.

Sorry I was way too vague, I was mainly talking about just straight curing. And I do love tanks that can haste and refresh themselves while having the fastest ustu casting speed & recast, great MDB, top-notch-almost-absolute hate, very decent mp pool, and and and...why aren't we trying to nerf RDM instead of sam?

[Stolin]

No, I think you are the one who has no fucking clue what youre talking about.

Regen 3 ?
Cure4 spam from a job that doesnt exactly wear a bunch of enmity down (and if they did, they would lose a lot of their MP, and rdm's arent renoun for their MP pool) ?

You're way off and wrong try again.

[NynJa]

No, I think you are the one who has no fucking clue what youre talking about.

Regen 3 ?
Cure4 spam from a job that doesnt exactly wear a bunch of enmity down (and if they did, they would lose a lot of their MP, and rdm's arent renoun for their MP pool) ?

You're way off and wrong try again.

ok lol...
keep doing events without whm's buddy.

[Stolin]

ok lol...
keep doing events without whm's buddy.

No you completely missed the point. As soon as you mentioned regen3 I knew you were talking out of your ass.

[aurik]

You see.. what i'm getting at, is that, while you said RDM and WHM were balanced (and by that you mean their "healing ability"). When it comes to balancing DRG and MNK you think what should define balance is not damage dealing but the other "things it excels in".

I am saying RDM and WHM are for the most part balanced because guess what, RDM excels in main healing some things and WHM excels in main healing others.

WHM doesn't beat RDM at main-healing in merits, because the things it brings to the table aren't as useful in merits as the things RDM brings to the table. Nobody fights shit that petrifies (anymore), nobody needs the super-pumped barspells, enmity is a non-issue and MP endurance is the name of the game in contemporary merits, something which RDMs are better at. On the other hand, WHM excels at main-healing at HNM because the things it brings are much, much more important than what RDMs are known for.

So they are balanced based on what they excel at, which is defined by their job abilities.

[aurik]

Ouryu is a wyrm last I checked.

Sorry I was way too vague, I was mainly talking about just straight curing. And I do love tanks that can haste and refresh themselves while having the fastest ustu casting speed & recast, great MDB, top-notch-almost-absolute hate, very decent mp pool, and and and...why aren't we trying to nerf RDM instead of sam?

Why would you be so specific? Let's talk about how puppetmaster has an unfair advantage on puppet manoevers.

[Stolin]

Why would you be so specific? Let's talk about how puppetmaster has an unfair advantage on puppet manoevers.

Cut out the bs.
You think white mage is balanced in a traditional white mage heals, red mage supports, tanks tank setup, and you're right in that sense it is. I'm saying the imbalance of red mage comes through their insane solo and role diversity. Thats that in a nutshell.

[HadesBothari]

You're missing the point. You wrote a whole paragraph saying they are balanced based on their "role" of healing (I am not disagreeing with you on this). While, at the same time, you say that when comparing DRG and MNKs they need to be balanced on their job defining features not their role. A DRG's "role" is damage dealing. its not support.. its not tanking its not healing. Its DDing. That should be what you define balance on. Role balance not situation balance.