The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[Beckwin]

A poison pill because the good ones can outdamage you at a camp where they have a 25% damage bonus? :/

And last I checked, you don't need spharai to (counter)tank moderately well in say, salvage. MNK is pretty undeniably the best salvage/chariot DD tank. But somehow that doesn't matter anymore because DRG does really well on Colibri.

[fantasticdan]

Ok, and mnks still have counter, guard, dodge, counterstance, chakra, and chiblast which kinda extend beyond simply punching fodder mobs, regardless of how comparitively ineffectual they are at tanking/nuking.

And I wouldn't be complaining half as much if these JT were useful enough to actually define a unique role for mnk.

Hypocrite much? Drg/mage and super jump don't define a unique role for drg either. You seem to think drg should be treated according to it's gimmicks, while mnk (which has a lot more of them) should not.

And why do you keep bringing up status heal breath? Yeah weaponskilling to cure poison, blind, or paralyze (those are the only debuffs it can cure) on a random target while subbing a mage job is really useful. It's much more effective to just cast a -na spell, since you're subbing /whm anyway, which mnk could also do.

[aurik]

Healing breath? Status removal breath? Hate management through dispersal? I don't think anyone will argue that pre-patch drgs didn't completely suck and that their role was marginal at best, but it was still there.

Jesus, you're so full of shit.

Your whole argument is FULL of complete utter shit.

What, dragoons DIDN'T have healing breath? They DIDN'T have status removal breath? They DIDN'T have super jump to remove hate? Your whole counter-argument is "you're full of shit", but everything I'm citing is a fact, so just who is full of shit?

Prior to this update, NOBODY invited DRG for ANY of the reasons you've brought up for ANY event. It's like you're taking the rest of us for complete fools if you think we really believe in your shitty "utility dd" stand.

Just because players ignored it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

[aurik]

A poison pill because the good ones can outdamage you at a camp where they have a 25% damage bonus? :/

And last I checked, you don't need spharai to (counter)tank moderately well in say, salvage. MNK is pretty undeniably the best salvage/chariot DD tank. But somehow that doesn't matter anymore because DRG does really well on Colibri.

Samurai is a better chariot tank now.

[Beckwin]

oh fucking please. third eye still doesn't compare to utsu.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Ok, and mnks still have counter, guard, dodge, counterstance, chakra, and chiblast which kinda extend beyond simply punching fodder mobs, regardless of how comparitively ineffectual they are at tanking/nuking.

And I wouldn't be complaining half as much if these JT were useful enough to actually define a unique role for mnk.

Hypocrite much? Drg/mage and super jump don't define a unique role for drg either. You seem to think drg should be treated according to it's gimmicks, while mnk (which has a lot more of them) should not.

And why do you keep bringing up status heal breath? Yeah weaponskilling to cure poison, blind, or paralyze (those are the only debuffs it can cure) on a random target while subbing a mage job is really useful. It's much more effective to just cast a -na spell, since you're subbing /whm anyway, which mnk could also do.

This whole argument is pointless and waste of time because, prior to this update, who the HELL actually invited a DRG to heal status effect anyway? WTF? Who actually thought, hey, let's ignore this perfectly good WHM or RDM and let this DRG/mage take their place in our PT/Alliance to fill that role? Who the fuck actually did that?

Aurik is just making shitty scenarios up to further prove his weak point.

[aurik]

Ok, and mnks still have counter, guard, dodge, counterstance, chakra, and chiblast which kinda extend beyond simply punching fodder mobs, regardless of how comparitively ineffectual they are at tanking/nuking.

And I wouldn't be complaining half as much if these JT were useful enough to actually define a unique role for mnk.

Hypocrite much? Drg/mage and super jump don't define a unique role for drg either. You seem to think drg should be treated according to it's gimmicks, while mnk (which has a lot more of them) should not.

And why do you keep bringing up status heal breath? Yeah weaponskilling to cure poison, blind, or paralyze (those are the only debuffs it can cure) on a random target while subbing a mage job is really useful. It's much more effective to just cast a -na spell, since you're subbing /whm anyway, which mnk could also do.

The dragoon's wyvern very clearly defines the job "dragoon". It's something unique to the job and the fact that your choice of subjob makes the wyvern act differently very clearly indicates that SE intended you to use your wyvern.

Oh, and you can get mage breaths subbing bard, ninja, paladin, dark knight, and several other jobs that don't have access to -na spells, myth busted!

Just because they completely failed to implement it in a way that players have found useful doesn't take away from the fact that the job has a unique, flexible role which should pre-empt it from being in the top teir of DDs.

[aurik]

oh fucking please. third eye still doesn't compare to utsu.

And sam/nin has both and better damage than monk on chariots?

[aurik]

Ok, and mnks still have counter, guard, dodge, counterstance, chakra, and chiblast which kinda extend beyond simply punching fodder mobs, regardless of how comparitively ineffectual they are at tanking/nuking.

And I wouldn't be complaining half as much if these JT were useful enough to actually define a unique role for mnk.

Hypocrite much? Drg/mage and super jump don't define a unique role for drg either. You seem to think drg should be treated according to it's gimmicks, while mnk (which has a lot more of them) should not.

And why do you keep bringing up status heal breath? Yeah weaponskilling to cure poison, blind, or paralyze (those are the only debuffs it can cure) on a random target while subbing a mage job is really useful. It's much more effective to just cast a -na spell, since you're subbing /whm anyway, which mnk could also do.

This whole argument is pointless and waste of time because, prior to this update, who the HELL actually invited a DRG to heal status effect anyway? WTF? Who actually thought, hey, let's ignore this perfectly good WHM or RDM and let this DRG/mage take their place in our PT/Alliance to fill that role? Who the fuck actually did that?

Aurik is just making shitty scenarios up to further prove his weak point.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF PLAYERS DID OR DID NOT UTILIZE THAT ASPECT OF DRAGOON'S ROLE

Just in case you missed the last 5 times I mentioned it.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Then using your brilliant logic, there's absolutely NO reason for MNKs to be complaining now.

Why?

Because you still have Chi Blast. You still have Mantra. You still have counter tanking. You still have Hundred Fist zerg. You still have LOLFORMLESS STRIKE.

Oh I'm going to love this.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF PLAYERS DID OR DID NOT UTILISE THOSE ASPECT OF A MNK'S ROLE

[aurik]

I'm an epic mouthbreathing moron that has lost sight of what we're actually discussing

Let me summarize what you and I are saying

Me: Drg is more flexible than mnk because it has a wyvern which can be tuned to do healing support, among other things
You: No it isn't
Me: Yes it is, look, clearly you have other things to do in xp than do straight up damage
You: No Drg is a pure DD
Me: You're not listening, you have more flexibility, so it's natural that you should have less focus as well
You: Nobody invites drgs to healing breath
Me: Doesn't matter, you can still do it
You: You have chi blast!

Congratulations on being an epic retard, you can stop posting now.

[fantasticdan]

Oh, and you can get mage breaths subbing bard, ninja, paladin, dark knight, and several other jobs that don't have access to -na spells, myth busted!

You actually don't get status removal breath subbing any of those jobs, hybrid wyvern doesn't have it.

[aurik]

Oh, and you can get mage breaths subbing bard, ninja, paladin, dark knight, and several other jobs that don't have access to -na spells, myth busted!

You actually don't get status removal breath subbing any of those jobs, hybrid wyvern doesn't have it.

You get healing breath, that is a mage breath.
You get status remove breath as Black Mage, Blue Mage, Summoner, and Red Mage none of which have -na.

[Priran]

Oh, and you can get mage breaths subbing bard, ninja, paladin, dark knight, and several other jobs that don't have access to -na spells, myth busted!

You actually don't get status removal breath subbing any of those jobs, hybrid wyvern doesn't have it.

most DRGs also never sub any of those. most of the time I see either /WHM, /BLM, or /RDM, all of which can trigger -na breaths.

[Zilong]

oh fucking please. third eye still doesn't compare to utsu.

And sam/nin has both and better damage than monk on chariots?

Gonna be a lot trickier to seigan/utsu tank though, since you'd need to cancel seigan before casting utsu or you'd end up with huge recast and cast time for utsu.

Though it'd be a lot more fun from what it seem...

[Ploid]

I'm getting a big dejavu from this thread (reminds me of the PS2 users should stop playing on ps2 thread). Just enjoy yourselves people, let others talk among themselves on how their job should be buffed. I find this patch to be good, the only thing is the accuracy is pretty much auto hit, but maybe that's how SE wanted it to be. Who knows.

[fantasticdan]

Oh, and you can get mage breaths subbing bard, ninja, paladin, dark knight, and several other jobs that don't have access to -na spells, myth busted!

You actually don't get status removal breath subbing any of those jobs, hybrid wyvern doesn't have it.

You get healing breath, that is a mage breath.
You get status remove breath as Black Mage, Blue Mage, Summoner, and Red Mage none of which have -na.

You were talking about status cures, either that or you were saying absolutely nothing with that sentence. The point is, if the drg/mage needs to help remove paralyze, they would be /whm anyway, which a mnk could also do for status cures and erase. Trying to use drg/blm or something to remove paralyze from a random person by performing a weaponskill is totally retarded. It's about as useful as the remove blind/poison/para effect on chakra.

You can say that the implementation of the wyvern abilities are just bad, but I could just say the implementation of chi blast, counterstance, etc is bad. The bottom line is, drg and mnk both have marginally useful gimmicks (chi blast, chakra, remove breath, super jump, counter etc), one somewhat useful trait (subtle blow for mnk to reduce mob tp gain, wyvern for drg to distribute enimity), a situational use (counterstance tanking, drg/mage), and types of mobs that they specialize in dealing damage against. But they are both primarily damage dealers, and don't do anything except deal damage in most situations. Maybe what this update did is broken, but the idea of drg/war and mnk/war being equal is not. Neither is drg outperforming mnk on a mob that it specializes in fighting against.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

I'm an epic mouthbreathing moron that has lost sight of what we're actually discussing

Let me summarize what you and I are saying

Me: Drg is more flexible than mnk because it has a wyvern which can be tuned to do healing support, among other things
You: No it isn't
Me: Yes it is, look, clearly you have other things to do in xp than do straight up damage
You: No Drg is a pure DD
Me: You're not listening, you have more flexibility, so it's natural that you should have less focus as well
You: Nobody invites drgs to healing breath
Me: Doesn't matter, you can still do it
You: You have chi blast!

Congratulations on being an epic retard, you can stop posting now.

Great, my turn.

You: My epenis just took a huge hit and I'm butt hurt. Therefore, instead of behing honest and just plain old bitch like DRG and SAM used to do, I'll make up some pretentious, pseudo-intelligent argument as to why it's not fair by making up completely, utterly bullshit scenarios to further my agenda.
Me: You're full of shit. Who the fuck cares if DRG could do any of that? RDM, WHM, SMN, any of those 3 jobs would do whatever DRG/mage can do and not be a total waste of space in a pt/alliance.
You: I'll continue to ignore the fact that MNKs also contribute besides just being straight up DD. For example, the ability Chi Blast in dangerous fights. The ability to enhance fellow DRK's damage output with Mantra. The ability to counter tank when situations call for it. Also, I'll continue to ignore the fact that MNKs are still the king in Salvage.
Me: See, MNKs still have other PRACTICAL uses. In the past, MNKs have major roles in big fights Chi Blasting. Also, MNKs are up there with Kraken DRK for zerg fights with Hundred Fist. And MNKs are undeniably the king of Salvage. And they STILL do now, even after the update. DRG, on the other hand, have NEVER been in important fights or big chain meripo PT because of minor and rarely, if ever used, ability to help cure status effect. Angon is nice, but we've been zerging shit just fine with Dia 2 for years before Angon was introduced.
You: I'll keep ignoring the fact that MNKs still have so many other uses other than being epenis in meripo party.
Me: See, you're still making shit up.
You: GRRR!111!11 REtarDATIon~!! gamma taking over. INCREdible HULK of MnK ANGER!!!!111 MORON! RETARD! MNK's NEED TO BE KING OF ALL THINGZZZZ. *foaming at the mouth*

Congratulation on being so fucking full of shit, we can all smell it through our monitor.

[Stolin]

DRG/BLU trumps all mage subs. Its a healing wyvern. You get a 50% defense boost that doesn't nerf your attack. Its win/win.

[AoshiZ]

Are the people that are arguing that healing breath is bad.... actually dragoons? Cuz healing breath is really really good. My opinion but...

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh