The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[Plow]

As much as I do respect what you bring to the community Aurik, the guy is pretty much spot on.


You're seriously sitting here saying subbing a trash sub and removing a debuff when you ws is some kind of a viable role, while arguing that things people worth a shit at this game actually use like chi blast and counter/guard tanking are not. The reality is that mnk as a standalone class is one of if not the most versatile melee, behind maybe nin. Arguing that any 1 job deserves to be flat out the best in half the freakin game is just ridiculous.


The funny thing is that in all this you've only hinted at and not directly mentioned the fact that there was a time when DRG were invited not for pure dmg, not for some bullshit breath that comes when they ws, and most certainly not for spamming dia to heal people. We used to invite them to set up some bigass light skillchains and take the trick attack ss/dk then ditch the hate. They can also handle voking to set up the same thing directly on the tank when necessary.

If you wanna give them a role besides pure damage, that's the direction to look.

[Cadena]

there's the other side of it. I don't use avesta to judge rdm anymore than I use ruke to judge sam.

While that's rightly done, you shouldn't also place them on a pedestal and think they're impossible (or nearly impossible) to reach. A large problem of the problem of the game comes from players' efforts and mindsets. I agree with Aurik in the fact that just because players do not utilize a job's potential, it doesn't mean the job sucks. When I play with others, I assess the player as well as job for the role needed to be filled.

This is coming from someone who is a BRD and RDM, so I've been in many merit parties...almost all being pickup ones. One of the complaints I've read ad nauseam is that DRG, DRK, THF, and all the other traditional "loljobs" don't get enough invites to merits, which is an issue the size of Ron Jeremy. It's all stigma. My last merit party...RDM BRD (oh no, typical merit focal point!) and the melees: DDs...NIN, DRG, BST, and PLD. We did about 15k/hour, but I wasn't keeping exact track because it was so relaxed. The NIN lost his connection for a while, the BRD had a pizza delivered and didn't play while eating (priorities!), I was playing pretty shitty that day and whatever.

It isn't exactly the 25k+/hour we all get here on BG, but it's nice especially considering we had both a BST and a PLD at the same time, which aren't normally thought of as DDs. (Oh, I think of DRG as a DD?!) And these guys weren't pimped, so please don't ask me if the BST was using Guttler/Temp or the PLD Joy/Justice. I forget what the DRG was wearing but it definitely was a bit crappy. I honestly really hate when I see people complain of WAR/MNK/NIN getting 25K+/hour because not any WAR/MNK/NIN is that good. Just like we should use Ruke/Avesta as examples, neither should we use the 25K+/hour parties...I've been in parties with the loljobs getting more than 20K/hour and in parties with the "/NIN jobs" getting a force-DC-ing 6K/hour.

I realize I'm falling in that tired skill vs. gear vs. job argument...please realize I neither approved nor disapproved of the update. This long(?) rant is just saying you all need to be more open-minded and less "no u."

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Are the people that are arguing that healing breath is bad.... actually dragoons? Cuz healing breath is really really good. My opinion but...

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh

Don't think anyone's arguing it's bad. It's good... but it's not "let's have drg/mage take up a spot in alliance to main heal and status cure over WHM and RDM, or ANY job -- INCLUDING MNK -- that /WHMs" good. Reality is, which something Aurik has much problem grasping, is that you realistically invite DRG to do damage, which NOW they can finally excel at thanks to the buff.

[aurik]

You're seriously sitting here saying subbing a trash sub and removing a debuff when you ws is some kind of a viable role

Where did I say viable?

[aurik]

Are the people that are arguing that healing breath is bad.... actually dragoons? Cuz healing breath is really really good. My opinion but...

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh

Don't think anyone's arguing it's bad. It's good... but it's not "let's have drg/mage take up a spot in alliance to main heal and status cure over WHM and RDM, or ANY job -- INCLUDING MNK -- that /WHMs" good. Reality is, which something Aurik has much problem grasping, is that you realistically invite DRG to do damage, which NOW they can finally excel at thanks to the buff.

Where did I say people invited them?

You invite dragoon to do damage because it sucks in the role that SE gave them, just like people invite smn to merits to play /whm. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the job is summoner, not 37-whm-with-1200-mp.

[Ploid]

Drgs have huge spears to stick in the ground and pole dance while their wyvern breath people as the drg do a dancing weaponskill like pole twirl.

[aurik]

Drgs have huge spears to stick in the ground and pole dance while their wyvern breath people as the drg do a dancing weaponskill like pole twirl.

And summoners have a radioactive squirrel that they won't even summon as they spam cure3 cure3 cure3...

It's funny that the drgs now are denying that they ever had a role now that it suits them. Pre-patch they were always touting how they could main-heal with healing breath and solo effectively for xp when nobody would invite them.

[evilpaul]

I tried to start a "melee SMN!!!" thread on KI but it didn't take.

[Cadena]

Forgot I wanted to point out that almost everyone wants to be #1. Fucking parsers I swear...

[Shuemue]

I wonder what a BLM/WAR with Perdu Scythe and decent gear could manage now...

[Ploid]

Wish I had the dancing dragoon gif saying he'd dance for a invite. If I could get my thf a invite at 60 before assassin I would sub whm, or anything just to get my foot in the door. I ended up leveling rdm to get invites. Then assassin came and gave me more of a place that drk/thfs couldn't fill. Drgs were meant to do damage and be flexible on the abilities of their wyvern I believe. They have to cast spells to get the wyvern to cure (from what I observed from a drg I farmed with as he cast poison over and over until it cured him) and they can weaponskill to cause it to do a breath on the enemy (it probably don't do much dmg as a tier1 nuke). The wyvern isn't nearly effective as a pups auto. The dragoon is the main while they wyvern is the mascot with perks.

Those drgs saying, "my wyvern can cure" was probably trying to seem attractive due to party's high demand for cures back then. Drgs are also good at solo and probably had to solo for exp due to being picked over in favor of almost any other job.

[shirak]

Drg's clung to any role they could find pre-update, but the sad fact was, they didn't do any role well and weren't wanted anywhere. Now, they have a legitament DD role and I'm pretty happy for drgs.

This whole /mage healing thing is stupid, there are a lot of reasons why generally its not viable, one of which being HNM AOEs. And if its not viable, then its not a viable argument to use.

Whats really interesting, is watching all the bandwagon DD jobs watch the world turn, then suddenly think they have some claim to the top of the hill looking up. Get over the update, Now 2handed jobs have a second chance in this game.

[BRP]

I wonder what a BLM/WAR with Perdu Scythe and decent gear could manage now...

I don't think it could be better than Staff...

[Shuemue]

I wonder what a BLM/WAR with Perdu Scythe and decent gear could manage now...

I don't think it could be better than Staff...

I bet it could, Claustrum is 72 base dmg, Perdu is 93 dmg with latent active, that's a pretty hefty increase.

[Amastacia]

Just a few thoughts...

First off:

The parse results put forth in this thread Re: Gungnir vs. Mandau, and Ruke's own parse in the other thread are completely invalid. They're using people geared for the old model.

Take that DRG, strip off most of that Acc gear that he doesn't need now because his DEX and Acc Bonus traits, substitute it with STR, Att and Haste gear, give him a Red Curry and see if he "barely" outparses Mr. Mandau. His Acc was so far past cap it's not even funny, he was squandering huge damage potential by gearing the way he did.

It's easy to say "well, I'm going to multiply their damage by 1.4 as an approximation of how they'd do now" but that's still just taking the boost itself into account and not altering playstyle to take maximum advantage of it. Get that DRK and that DRG into the high-Acc high-Att range that any "great geared" 2-hander can now achieve, and see what happens.

Second off:

Why does everyone need to be equal at everything? I think it's perfectly acceptable that certain jobs are more useful/better at grinding XP than others. If grinding XP is something you enjoy, level the job whose niche that is.

If you like killing HNMs, you're certainly not going to rush to level MNK, you can count on one hand the number of HNM situations where a MNK is desirable and not just passable when presented with no better alternative.

Different strokes for different folks.

Aurik is absolutely right that MNK is designed from the ground up to dish out massive amounts of DoT on squishy T-VT mobs. That's all it does exceptionally well. The various 2h jobs have their specialties as implemented by SE, and it does suck that those specialties are judged useless by most of the playerbase.

What does that mean? The jobs should have those specialties reworked to make them more useful, or situations should be presented where they are useful as is.

That doesn't mean you need to make every job do exactly the same thing as every other job and do it just as well. The end result of that is you level a job because you like the way its endgame gear looks or the way they hold their weapon, not because of any unique and cool things about the job. People level SAM because they like rattling off strong WS after strong WS with relatively few intervening hits and because of its ability to good damage on HNMs. People don't level MNK for that reason.

Much like Aurik, one of the things I've always loved about FFXI is that it breaks the mold of the Holy Trinity and each job, at least on paper, has a neat and fairly unique niche that differentiates it from jobs that it would otherwise be lumped together with. The practical implementation has often been lacking, and SE has done precious little to create a wide variety of scenarios which cater to particular jobs' strengths. The fix is not to tear that system down and make everyone created equal at DDing. The fix is to magnify those differences and create situations where one job is king, and there's a compelling reason to do said situation regularly.

I'm a bit appalled at how many people look past his argument and just see "butthurt MNK". Sure, he's butthurt, but it's not soley because his MNK is no longer top dog. The system he saw in place and liked SE for has been shattered. Whether you see the game the same way as him or not is pretty much irrelevant, he's as entitled to his world view as you are yours. Just because you see one big bin labeled "DD" and want to be able to interchangeably pull anything out and have it do about the same thing as anything else you could've grabbed for any given situation doesn't mean that it is the way the game was intended or necessarily the way the game should work.

The onus really falls on SE to make what they envisioned happen in their game, and it's one thing they always fall flat on because they patently misunderstand their own game dynamic and player base. They see a problem but perennially mis-diagnose it or mis-treat it, and while they've gotten better at recognizing objective reality, they haven't gotten any better at making their vision and reality mesh. You can only stick so many square pegs into round holes before you stop even trying to analyze the shape, I guess.

Meh, enough rambling from me.

p.s. My MNK is level 4 and staying that way, and like I said I don't care about being #1 merit DD, just seeing the game balanced the way it was intended, not just by enforcing communism and making everyone equal at everything.

p.p.s. ibttl;dr

[Turambar]

Let me summarize what you and I are saying

Me: Drg is more flexible than mnk because it has a wyvern which can be tuned to do healing support, among other things
You: No it isn't
Me: Yes it is, look, clearly you have other things to do in xp than do straight up damage
You: No Drg is a pure DD
Me: You're not listening, you have more flexibility, so it's natural that you should have less focus as well
You: Nobody invites drgs to healing breath
Me: Doesn't matter, you can still do it
You: You have chi blast!

Congratulations on being an epic retard, you can stop posting now.

You're correct to point out that DRG has other utility besides just poking things with those pointy sticks they carry around. You're just ignoring the fact that they aren't GOOD at any of those things. The only thing a DRG was ever good at is dealing damage. You may as well argue that DRKs should be invited for their utility as a debuffer.

[Shuemue]

I've sure seen DRKs invited for Stun before.

[Turambar]

I've sure seen DRKs invited for Stun before.

And I'm sure you've also seen that BLM/RDM and RDM/DRK both do a better job of it because they can do it more often. And I'm sure you also realized that I was referring to Poison, Bind, Sleep, and Bio, i.e. the spells that are actually debuffs. And I'm sure you also know that this whole argument is about job use in merits, which nobody invites a DRK to just for Stun.

[Alisha]

what concerns me the most as a monk is wether i can actually keep up with 2 handers.(im not a BB mnk but im also not an AH monk) to match a 2 handed swing i need to land at least 2 punches each round. additional rounds created through my speed advantage can help fill in the gaps created by 2 handed weapon skill damage what worries me is the inconsistancy of double attack,kick attacks and critical hits wich is what would fill in the rest of the gap. either those incosistances need to fixed or remove the 8 hit cap from asuran fists. a merited drg/war can possibly jump at least once per fight and double attack on those jumps >_> oh er buffing double attack isnt an option since its available to everyone. so maybe just boost the proc rate of tripple attack and kick attacks as well crits for 1 handers.

[SeraphusRagnarok]

what concerns me the most as a monk is wether i can actually keep up with 2 handers.(im not a BB mnk but im also not an AH monk) to match a 2 handed swing i need to land at least 2 punches each round. additional rounds created through my speed advantage can help fill in the gaps created by 2 handed weapon skill damage what worries me is the inconsistancy of double attack,kick attacks and critical hits wich is what would fill in the rest of the gap. either those incosistances need to fixed or remove the 8 hit cap from asuran fists. a merited drg/war can possibly jump at least once per fight and double attack on those jumps >_> oh er buffing double attack isnt an option since its available to everyone. so maybe just boost the proc rate of tripple attack and kick attacks as well crits for 1 handers.

But before this patch, I could have said the same thing as DRG about MNK and WARs

Behold:

what concerns me the most as a dragoon is wether i can actually keep up with dual weilders and MNNKs.(im not a homam drg but im also not an AH drg) to match 2 hits per round i need to land at all my swings and double attacls. additional attack rounds through Jump help fill in the gaps created by dual weilders/monks attacking so fast and consistantly. what worries me is that if i miss a swing, i have to wait 7 seconds before i swing again whereas dual weilders and monks get extra oppurtunities to hit again through kick attacks,DA/TA, ridll/joys. Also that rampage does the same damage as my penta thrust despite my weapon being double the damage rating. either those incosistances need to fixed or increase the attack power on 2h weapons so that one swing from my mezraq doesnt do 20 points more than a weapon with half the damage rating. In practice a 93 damage weapon should hit for close to 2x the damage of a 46 damage axe, but it doesnt.a war/nin can possibly attack 4x per attack round >.> ridill and joy can attack 5x per attack round whereas 2h can only attack 1-2