The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[BRP]

There is no forcing into any role.

There are very few monsters in this game that require people to actually give so much of a fuck that they can't bring a THF to do a spike WS instead of a DRK or SAM. After you are pretty much assured success, it really doesn't matter how you obtain it unless it's taking you another hour to do it or some exp loss. Let's just get that understood. No change in the game will force THF into the TH role, only a change in a players' opinions.


Anyway, I think we can all agree that the DEX = Acc conversation is insanely broken?

[Flarega]

Great, here's my point, that playing a certain job shouldn't put you into such a firmly designated role. It should instead give you different abilities than other jobs to be able to deal damage and defeat enemies efficiently like other jobs. Playing X job as opposed to Y job should give you a different means to achieving the mutually desired end(killing mobs).

[Aireiya]

Great, here's my point, that playing a certain job shouldn't put you into such a firmly designated role. It should instead give you different abilities than other jobs to be able to deal damage and defeat enemies efficiently like other jobs. Playing X job as opposed to Y job should give you a different means to achieving the mutually desired end(killing mobs).

Seriously? You're saying every job should kill shit just as efficiently as any other job, but as long as one uses a scythe, the other uses spells, and the other uses fists, it's ok? Did you consider the tanking jobs at all? Healing jobs? Eh, I don't even know what to say in response.

[Flarega]

Talking about DD jobs...

[VZX]

Rng: I really don't see a core design here. Before the rng patch, I saw this job as the ranged form of monk - pure dps, but slightly better dps than even monk for the price of ammo. After the rng patch, I have no idea wtf SE is thinking.

Actually, RNG and MNK is a different classification. Unless RNG have some JT/JA that allow them to shoot like a machine gun in expense of whatever(DMG maybe?), then you can categorize it that way.

Anyway,
I've tried to PT with 2handers today, as well as COR

I'm happy detonator is boosted now, at least it has usefulness (that the attack power is tremendously increased). Good for high eva/def monster.

As far as for 2handers,
SAM : Their average damage with hedgehog pie is slightly higher than my RNG's slugwinder with coeurl sub. I guess that's fine for me. But, they are probably the most broken one due to ability to frequently deal that spike damage.

DRK and GAxe war seems ok to me. They can hit hard (though some of my vorpal blade can match some of their lower number), but they can't attack that fast and can't produce WS within short period of time like SAM.

DRG... still need to work harder.. their damage boost doesn't impress me that much.

[Sasarai]

Under no circumstances should a pimped RNG/WAR be doing less with Slugwinder than a pimped SAM/WAR with Tachi:Gekko. Its fucking insane.

[Mikichan]

Under no circumstances should a pimped RNG/WAR be doing less with Slugwinder than a pimped SAM/WAR with Tachi:Gekko. Its fucking insane.

I doubt that RNG will do less, unless you take into account extreme stuffs like wyrms, v.s which RNG has great damage penalty and level correction reduction. I have yet seen any SS of SAM doing Tachi: Gekko for constantly 2K+ w/o minuets - a good RNG/WAR can do about that at colibri camp. V.s higher defense stuffs, I believe the gap will be smaller, and SAM/WAR may put up higher average number due to the amount of WSes they can spam during berserk with good timing of med and such, but highest number should still go to Ranger.

[ringthree]

Anyway, I think we can all agree that the DEX = Acc conversation is insanely broken?

Definitely borked, believe me, I have a ton to gain from this update but my SAM shouldn't be in full haste gear eating meat with no accuracy buffs and hitting 85%+ accuracy.

[SephYuyX]

Anyway, I think we can all agree that the DEX = Acc conversation is insanely broken?

Definitely borked, believe me, I have a ton to gain from this update but my SAM shouldn't be in full haste gear eating meat with no accuracy buffs and hitting 85%+ accuracy.

Why shouldnt it?

[Ryko]

Anyway, I think we can all agree that the DEX = Acc conversation is insanely broken?

Definitely borked, believe me, I have a ton to gain from this update but my SAM shouldn't be in full haste gear eating meat with no accuracy buffs and hitting 85%+ accuracy.

Why shouldnt it?

Because it makes food choices, song options, and a ton of gear obsolete? Dropping 18 accuracy by not using a haub shouldn't have little to no actual effect on my accuracy when I was using neither madrigal nor sushi.

[SephYuyX]

Why is that a bad thing?

[ringthree]

Anyway, I think we can all agree that the DEX = Acc conversation is insanely broken?

Definitely borked, believe me, I have a ton to gain from this update but my SAM shouldn't be in full haste gear eating meat with no accuracy buffs and hitting 85%+ accuracy.

Why shouldnt it?

Because it makes food choices, song options, and a ton of gear obsolete? Dropping 18 accuracy by not using a haub shouldn't have little to no actual effect on my accuracy when I was using neither madrigal nor sushi.

Initially, let me say that I am still firmly opposed to all of the whining that I am hearing from some dual-wielders. This update was long-overdue, and I still feel like it is very much whining by some just because they can't be number one anymore.

That being said, I think leaving the damage calculations alone while just returning to DEX=.5 ACC would fix things pretty much perfectly. It would return people to the forced choice in food and gear to get acceptable accuracy. This is just days after the update, people haven't even started maximizing their gear sets yet. If the DEX to Acc ratio was returned to what it used to be then there would be no shift in gear because two-handers would still have to focus like they used to (there might be some attack to STR swapping but I think this would be of much less relevance).

I do want to say that I don't think it makes gear obsolete, it actually increases gear options. For example before people would not ever think of TPing Kirin's Osode... now the idea isn't so far fetched.

[Ryko]

Why is that a bad thing?

Is this going to be one of those hole in the bucket things?

It obsoletes, food, gear, and song choices for players depending on how well theyre geared. It means that aside from overwhelm merits and STR there is going to be zilch difference between 1 samurai and the next (and you can say "Well one player might be smarter than the next!" but that's not the variable I'm placing here, I'm saying a smart player using crappy food, a gearset that in all rights shouldnt hit the broadside of a barn, and no songs to help what used to be a weakness will do the same as a smart player who actually put some effort into their gear 2 days ago). No DD should be able to drop basically any acc but an ace's helm, a charm/torque and a rajas ring and be popping out 91%+ accuracy. It's only ignorable if you were a gimp beforehand.

This is just days after the update, people haven't even started maximizing their gear sets yet.

All it took was a DA strap, Fuma shoes, and an Askar body to maximize my gearset on my SAM. That was done by the end of the night on monday.

I do want to say that I don't think it makes gear obsolete, it actually increases gear options. For example before people would not ever think of TPing Kirin's Osode... now the idea isn't so far fetched.

If the piece doesn't have DA, TA, or Haste on it, it's worthless (That means all but one of the grips they added on the very same patch). You are free to disagree but that's pretty much plain fact.

[ringthree]

Why is that a bad thing?

It is not a "bad" or "good" thing. It holds no moral value on it's own.

For game play, it is unbalanced. I can understand the reasoning that slower swings need more accuracy to equal in TP gain to that of dual-wielders, but the damage improvement was enough to equalize damage, so the accuracy gain becomes to much.

I don't mind at all the idea that SAM/DRG/DRK can out damage WAR/MNK/NIN, I just don't see the game play reason to have additional accuracy added to that, seems like it would be better to universalize it across the board.

[SephYuyX]

So maybe 1h'rs will be getting an upgrade when WoG comes out, for all we know this dmg increase plays some sort of role. People just need to embrace it and make the best of it and step up our dmg output to a new level.

[ringthree]

This is just days after the update, people haven't even started maximizing their gear sets yet.

All it took was a DA strap, Fuma shoes, and an Askar body to maximize my gearset on my SAM. That was done by the end of the night on monday.

Thats kind of my point, thats just tossed together stuff, over time we get more and more into the gear and the changes and it will get worse and worse. DEX builds are now not only possible but encouraged, for example.

I do want to say that I don't think it makes gear obsolete, it actually increases gear options. For example before people would not ever think of TPing Kirin's Osode... now the idea isn't so far fetched.

If the piece doesn't have DA, TA, or Haste on it, it's worthless (That means all but one of the grips they added on the very same patch). You are free to disagree but that's pretty much plain fact.

I think you are being a bit hostile, and I am basically agreeing with you. So let me clarify, I will agree for the optimal player there are always limited gear choices because there is only one best item for each slot. Those best items may have shifted but the number of best choices has remained the same, that is the only true fact here. My point is just that those perfect gears can shift based on situation. For example, you think that your Askar has optimized you but I think that my Haub +1 is still better than it for TP build because I have switched over to using my Soboro now and the DA is irrelevant to me. Shit is situational right?

My point wasn't really about you and I, it was about the wider variety of relatively good gear and that is now much wider. The pinnacle may be the same, but the available options after that are much more varied.

In essence what I am saying is that crappy players with crappy gear will be able to use that crappy gear to much greater effect, which probably isn't a good thing.

[LD]

If they change something for the purpose of balancing it against something else, why not just wait until they can add that other thing? WotG is still 4 months away, that's kind of a long time to wait to even everything out if you KNOW it's unbalanced.

[shirak]

How can you KNOW in 3 days its unbalanced when the developers have been working on it for months.

Without the dex=acc deal (and its uncertain whether that includes base stats at all) 2handers are right back in the same boat. You think 10-12 accuracy, 50 or so attack, and a gimped ws (gearing for acc) will even the playing field between a "good" war and a "good" drg... Nooooo!

[Amele]

as much as people are saying this is limiting gear choices, I think, in SE's eyes, this is actually *expanding* the list of items that see regular use.

I mean, askar body? dex rings, osode being useful for more than rng and some weaponskills, hell. the new abjuration body from einherjar just got hot as hell for gaxe war.

and so on.

now, is this a good thing for us? maybe, maybe not. I kind of liked that you had to be really meticulous in balancing att/sushi or acc/meat and weighing which set gave you the best overall stats and some of that is lost.

but at the same time, I rejoice that there's going to be new decisions about new items and balancing where you aren't locked into one of three bodies just because none of the other ones have accuracy at all.


of course in six months it may be the same problem in reverse (none of the bodies that aren't at least att+12 will even be considered or something.) but for now, I'm tentatively cool with seeing new gear.

to the above poster. it includes base stats. ask your whitemages to equip a staff and a club and tell you what their attack and skill is.

[Nagamaki]

There's nothing uncertain about the fact that the full value of your attribute (STR, DEX) is added to your stat, the ppl who posted "proof" of the opposite used a reasoning that shames the concept of reason.

Basically its very easy to sum up what is wrong with this patch :

- Everything that was mentionned in the updates notes is awesome, improves the DoT and spike damage of jobs and their general versatility.
- Everything that they changed without mention in the update notes (monster acc boost out of the fucking void, gimping the damage done by 1 handers previously optimal attack cRatio ranges) was pretty much unnecessary.

The accuracy calculation was the same for every melee weapon, and the only distinction in the amounts of accuracy one could achieve came from gear/merits/max weapon rank, which actually is lower at A- for most 1 handers, hand-to-hand excluded. What exactly justifies changing something nobody said was broken? Oh and if someone comes up with some inane comparison with real world weapons, I have some cyanide pills for you. The knowledge of real melee combat 99% of people have can be summed up by watching Star Wars, no clue whatsoever.

The ninja gimp of one-hander pdif cap is just icing on the cake, and means the people spouting off about "but its a buff and nobody got nerfed" can quit trying.