The Rest of Us [Dual Wield to 2h comparisons]

[Shadida]

I can't help but feel like I got the shaft, but it's not THF that bothers me - it really only comes out for events like Dynamis and Salvage to be a TH whore.

Not really a dual wield comparison, but it's the "other" type of physical damage - ranged attacks.

The problem I see as a RNG, is that they worked so hard to "balance" (read: nerf) ranged attacks with everyone so long ago, so that they weren't overpowered. I accepted that because there was no denying that ranged attacks were broken. But now, a huge class of DDs just got a very significant boost, while ranged attacks remain unchanged. Rangers suffered from most of the same fundamental problems that 2-handers did, perhaps even worse since we can't utilize Haste. We have slower attacks with damage that simply doesn't add up versus NIN or MNK damage, relying mostly on a burst-damage model to keep up. Really the only things keeping RNG in the running anymore are Barrage, which remains one of the best JA's in the game, and Sidewinder, being the extremely powerful WS it is and being incomparable to other WS's. Now, everything that happens between Barrages and Sidewinders is even less meaningful than before, while two-handers will be doing more consistent melee damage and have more powerful weaponskills. One could make an argument about our fSTR2 and ranged pDIF, but I'm afraid we will find that those are obsolete now that 2-handed weapons are so improved and the discrepancy in attack power becomes more obvious.

I'm not calling for a nerf and I'm not even that upset - I'm still confident my RNG will keep turning heads :wink: - but it's still kind of disheartening to feel like we were left behind. I mean, DRG even got an extra rank of Accuracy Bonus... why can't RNGs get the same thing? It was our Job Trait first.

[Coldone]

I can't help but feel like I got the shaft, but it's not THF that bothers me - it really only comes out for events like Dynamis and Salvage to be a TH whore.

Not really a dual wield comparison, but it's the "other" type of physical damage - ranged attacks.

The problem I see as a RNG, is that they worked so hard to "balance" (read: nerf) ranged attacks with everyone so long ago, so that they weren't overpowered. I accepted that because there was no denying that ranged attacks were broken. But now, a huge class of DDs just got a very significant boost, while ranged attacks remain unchanged. Rangers suffered from most of the same fundamental problems that 2-handers did, perhaps even worse since we can't utilize Haste. We have slower attacks with damage that simply doesn't add up versus NIN or MNK damage, relying mostly on a burst-damage model to keep up. Really the only things keeping RNG in the running anymore are Barrage, which remains one of the best JA's in the game, and Sidewinder, being the extremely powerful WS it is and being incomparable to other WS's. Now, everything that happens between Barrages and Sidewinders is even less meaningful than before, while two-handers will be doing more consistent melee damage and have more powerful weaponskills. One could make an argument about our fSTR2 and ranged pDIF, but I'm afraid we will find that those are obsolete now that 2-handed weapons are so improved and the discrepancy in attack power becomes more obvious.

I'm not calling for a nerf and I'm not even that upset - I'm still confident my RNG will keep turning heads :wink: - but it's still kind of disheartening to feel like we were left behind. I mean, DRG even got an extra rank of Accuracy Bonus... why can't RNGs get the same thing? It was our Job Trait first.

RNG being my first job and my favorite up until the nerf i agree with you. We already had the 4 accuracy bonuses.. but then with the ranged attack and ranged accuracy nerf it definately hurt us alot. With all the buffs to everyone else.. they should put rng back to the way it used to be.

[Xaetica]

And so enters the age of the Staff-MNK!

[Shadida]

RNG being my first job and my favorite up until the nerf i agree with you. We already had the 4 accuracy bonuses.. but then with the ranged attack and ranged accuracy nerf it definately hurt us alot. With all the buffs to everyone else.. they should put rng back to the way it used to be.

Ah, you're right about the Accuracy Bonus. Silly me - I thought DRG already had more than that.

Well, I don't agree with you (RNG was seriously broken) but I'd be overjoyed to see a STR=R.atk and AGI=R.acc boost, like the two-handers.

[Mifaco]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...aiyinJesus.gifRAAAARGH I'M A 2-HANDER, I'VE GONE SSJ4http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...aiyinJesus.gif

[Coldone]

RNG being my first job and my favorite up until the nerf i agree with you. We already had the 4 accuracy bonuses.. but then with the ranged attack and ranged accuracy nerf it definately hurt us alot. With all the buffs to everyone else.. they should put rng back to the way it used to be.

Well, I don't agree with you (RNG was seriously broken) but I'd be overjoyed to see a STR=R.atk and AGI=R.acc boost, like the two-handers. Or at least more Accuracy Bonus. :wink:

Oh i agree RNG was seriously broken.. back then... but now... if RNG was like it was I don't think it would be considered broken anymore.

[ringthree]

I can't help but feel like I got the shaft, but it's not THF that bothers me - it really only comes out for events like Dynamis and Salvage to be a TH whore.

Not really a dual wield comparison, but it's the "other" type of physical damage - ranged attacks.

The problem I see as a RNG, is that they worked so hard to "balance" (read: nerf) ranged attacks with everyone so long ago, so that they weren't overpowered. I accepted that because there was no denying that ranged attacks were broken. But now, a huge class of DDs just got a very significant boost, while ranged attacks remain unchanged. Rangers suffered from most of the same fundamental problems that 2-handers did, perhaps even worse since we can't utilize Haste. We have slower attacks with damage that simply doesn't add up versus NIN or MNK damage, relying mostly on a burst-damage model to keep up. Really the only things keeping RNG in the running anymore are Barrage, which remains one of the best JA's in the game, and Sidewinder, being the extremely powerful WS it is and being incomparable to other WS's. Now, everything that happens between Barrages and Sidewinders is even less meaningful than before, while two-handers will be doing more consistent melee damage and have more powerful weaponskills. One could make an argument about our fSTR2 and ranged pDIF, but I'm afraid we will find that those are obsolete now that 2-handed weapons are so improved and the discrepancy in attack power becomes more obvious.

I'm not calling for a nerf and I'm not even that upset - I'm still confident my RNG will keep turning heads :wink: - but it's still kind of disheartening to feel like we were left behind. I mean, DRG even got an extra rank of Accuracy Bonus... why can't RNGs get the same thing? It was our Job Trait first.

First, I completely sympathize with what you are saying here. But I think that overall, for everyone, this new track that SE is following is generally much better. We have begged SE since the RNG nerf to stop nerfing jobs and just buff the rest of the jobs to make things equal. I think that some people are being a bit disingenuous when they say that they are upset by this when this is exactly what they have been asking for.

For example, what would have been the reaction if, instead of buffing two-handed weapons, they nerfed dual-wield to make the jobs more even. It would have essentially had the same effect, but the outcry would have been heard on Mars. We asked for a two-handed weapon fix, we asked they do it through buffs. They listened.

Second, just from the parses I have seen so far, things are actually pretty well balanced. Ridill WARs are still king, and MNKs are still awesome. The difference is that everyone is much closer. I have heard the suggestion that people are now upset that an AH SAM/DRG/DRK can now keep closer with a decked MNK/NIN/WAR, but think about it in the opposite direction. For literally years now, decked two-handed users have watched as all their effort has shown to be for naught compared to an AH WAR/MNK/NIN.

Ultimately, good players should be rewarded irrelevent of the job. A great DRG with great gear should be just as capable as a great WAR with gear gear.

This update ultimately benefits what we all want rewarded the most: good players.

[ronin sparthos]

This all seems to just feel too good to be true.... like SE is doing this to break the cap on what kinda monsters they can throw at us and how powerful these monsters can be.

I kinda get the feeling there will be 'adjustments' to the HNMs, once they see the kinda hell this unleashed. lol

[Cjskater]

ImageRAAAARGH I'M A 2-HANDER, I'VE GONE SSJ4Image

REEEEEEEEARRRGGGHHH MY EYES I'M HAVING AN EPILEPTIC ATTACK

[TrueZero]

While part of me thinks that it's simply "their turn," a time for all the normally neglected melees to finally have the upper hand, and that maybe that was SE's intention, part of me wishes they'd actually sit down and think about balancing jobs instead of buffing everybody to the point where the game is getting undeniably easier every time they do job 'balancing.'

That said, bottom line is I've actually enjoyed playing PLD more when they've 'fixed' it, and I'll probably enjoy DRK more now, but like the more nuanced of us, will secretly hope for a potentially impending (if not slight) re-nerf.

Edit: by the way, I haven't tried it yet, but did my bahamut zaghnal just become way, way cooler?

[Isiolia]

Second, just from the parses I have seen so far, things are actually pretty well balanced. Ridill WARs are still king, and MNKs are still awesome. The difference is that everyone is much closer. I have heard the suggestion that people are now upset that an AH SAM/DRG/DRK can now keep closer with a decked MNK/NIN/WAR, but think about it in the opposite direction. For literally years now, decked two-handed users have watched as all their effort has shown to be for naught compared to an AH WAR/MNK/NIN.

What about jobs such as BST or THF that needed to go the extra mile already, and are still left behind?

Or heck, what about BLM? This just further makes it a niche job.

If an AH 2 hander is nearly up there with decked out dual wielders, then things aren't really on par, which presumably was the goal. What I'm seeing isn't really indicating equal effort = similar results regardless of job/weapon type though. It just seems like they changed who has an inherent advantage.

[tyraravenlocke]

Second, just from the parses I have seen so far, things are actually pretty well balanced. Ridill WARs are still king, and MNKs are still awesome. The difference is that everyone is much closer. I have heard the suggestion that people are now upset that an AH SAM/DRG/DRK can now keep closer with a decked MNK/NIN/WAR, but think about it in the opposite direction. For literally years now, decked two-handed users have watched as all their effort has shown to be for naught compared to an AH WAR/MNK/NIN.

What about jobs such as BST or THF that needed to go the extra mile already, and are still left behind?

Or heck, what about BLM? This just further makes it a niche job.

If an AH 2 hander is nearly up there with decked out dual wielders, then things aren't really on par, which presumably was the goal. What I'm seeing isn't really indicating equal effort = similar results regardless of job/weapon type though. It just seems like they changed who has an inherent advantage.

Heh.. hey we have stun... crap so does dark.

But we can do spike damage on demand... shit pretty much every melee out there can now too.

But HEY we can heal too... crap rdm and whm do that way better..

Hrm.. niche.. might not be the word I use

[simozene]

Wow... just reading this thread makes me sad.

My only melee job is NIN, and I have the feeling I will do *far* more damage with a great katana as opposed to my regular katanas. When it comes to that, it is pretty clear to say that this update is broken. I feel the only way to even the playing field again without nerfing the update is to put the TP floor back on dual wielding. Because without that, dual wielders simply don't have a chance against 2-handed weapon users.

[AoshiZ]

I love being a two hander and have been since the NA release.... and I think we really need a buff but i think they should just undo alot of what they've done. Sorry for the rant, skip this if you're tired of rants.

Since PDIF can go up to 3.0 for Two Handed weapons it means we can get critical damage levels by compensating with attack. The change of the WS's to have a chance of critically hitting in Raging Rush and Skewer is a trick! Why do the hits need to critical if all the player has to do is have enough attack to force them to be 3.0 PDIF (which was nicely facilited by STR 1 = ATTK 1). In fact, since every damn hit in the WS can now be 3.0 PDIF... we see Guillotines and Penta Thrusts for several K damage? (I heard 3.5-4k in some other threads but I'm not sure). Why change the characteristics of the WS's to critical .... oh wait its really a nerf!

The STR 1 = ATTK 1 is ok if they kept the PDIF the same with 2.4 with crits at 3.0. Which would prevent the above a little bit. But overall i think they should have done something like change the fStr to go up faster similar to ranged fStr.

The DEX 1 = ACC 1 is just dumb. I read somewhere else with someone saying two handed weapons should be more accurate because you're using two hands. Obviously these people have never gone to Medieval Times (fake medieval battle entertainment) and picked up a GreatSword cuz its anything but accurate or ever Fenced because a rapier(french fencing weapon?) is pretty freakin accurate. This could arguably be given to dual wielders.... but I'm not going to get into buffing ACC cuz its just wrong. (naked taru warrior greatsword =/...)

So Thf sub sucks now for pretty much every Two hander that used it because you can just berserk and get the same damage with the above statement. I liked having more options for my subs.

I also liked critical hitting it was really fun. But if you scale your Attack towards 999(which isn't that hard now) its broken.

And what the hell is up with limiting 1handed weapons PDIF to 2.0 from 2.4? They didn't think the 2H buff was enough?

I honestly don't want to play until they fix this crap. I really liked it back in the days when we'd XP in sky with the golems and SC to get the extra bit of damage from MB/SC bonuses. Think thats what the game was supposed to be like. This is definitely a step in the wrong direction =/ poo poo

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh

[ringthree]

While part of me thinks that it's simply "their turn," a time for all the normally neglected melees to finally have the upper hand, and that maybe that was SE's intention, part of me wishes they'd actually sit down and think about balancing jobs instead of buffing everybody to the point where the game is getting undeniably easier every time they do job 'balancing.'

That said, bottom line is I've actually enjoyed playing PLD more when they've 'fixed' it, and I'll probably enjoy DRK more now, but like the more nuanced of us, will secretly hope for a potentially impending (if not slight) re-nerf.

Edit: by the way, I haven't tried it yet, but did my bahamut zaghnal just become way, way cooler?

Everything I have seen so far, although limited, appears that it has been balanced. Look at the parses, not just the insane WS damage. Two-handers still swing slower and are still going to do fewer WS's, which is where the dual-wielders excelled before.

Basically it is now fewer but stronger WS = more but weaker WS.

Wow... just reading this thread makes me sad.

My only melee job is NIN, and I have the feeling I will do *far* more damage with a great katana as opposed to my regular katanas. When it comes to that, it is pretty clear to say that this update is broken. I feel the only way to even the playing field again without nerfing the update is to put the TP floor back on dual wielding. Because without that, dual wielders simply don't have a chance against 2-handed weapon users.

Do you have any proof, anything at all, that leads you to this feeling?

[vagus]

To be honest, I don't play any melee jobs. However, it's quite exhilarating to see jobs that have been laughed all these years to finally get the power boost they're looking for. I remember seeing a topic on BG not long ago saying how a naked mnk can outparse a fully geared drg. It makes no sense that the best geared drg can't beat a lower than average mnk. Honestly though, they didn't nerf anyone, there's no reason to be upset. Imo, any buff is a good buff.

I'd rather not have johnny AH SAM come within a minimal difference of people of the same job who have gone out of their way to really gear it and merit it well.

And this is what has happened. Quite sad indeed. Lol.

[Xno]

dual wielders simply don't have a chance against 2-handed weapon users.

and how were things before update ? : 2-handed weapon simply don't have a chance against dual wielder right ?

I think SE use those unbalancement so players keep leveling other jobs , who are currently the best ,

There are 2 kind of player , the ones who level jobs because they really like it , and the ones who like the job because they re stronger than others, i respect the first one , those who never leave their drk or drg or war GA with dust on it

[ringthree]

To be honest, I don't play any melee jobs. However, it's quite exhilarating to see jobs that have been laughed all these years to finally get the power boost they're looking for. I remember seeing a topic on BG not long ago saying how a naked mnk can outparse a fully geared drg. It makes no sense that the best geared drg can't beat a lower than average mnk. Honestly though, they didn't nerf anyone, there's no reason to be upset. Imo, any buff is a good buff.

I'd rather not have johnny AH SAM come within a minimal difference of people of the same job who have gone out of their way to really gear it and merit it well.

And this is what has happened. Quite sad indeed. Lol.

How do you think all those people that spent time and effort to make their SAM/DRK/DRG well merited and geared felt when they watched crappy AH WAR/NIN/MNK get all the xp invites for years?

This update rewards good players, not just people that choose to level a certain job.

There is no evidence at this point (from all the parses that I have seen) that this is anything more than a balancing of DD's. I have not seen any proof that two-handed users are now crushing dual-wielders in the way that dual-wielders used to crush two-handed users.

[lysol]

This update really bites for jobs thats not 2handed dds or war or mnk. Thfs Rngs and others who already were towards bottom for merit parties are really down at the bottom now who wants a ranger with their slow ass ranged attacks with weak ass crits. When they can get a double attacking drg/war destroying everything. My problem with this was before this update drg and sam were fine in merits drg people didnt invite because they were too narrow-minded to give a chance but thing was drg could keep up with most jobs on parse their dot was very nice if they knew what they were doing and took the time to have the best equip.

[AoshiZ]

Everything I have seen so far, although limited, appears that it has been balanced. Look at the parses, not just the insane WS damage. Two-handers still swing slower and are still going to do fewer WS's, which is where the dual-wielders excelled before.

Basically it is now fewer but stronger WS = more but weaker WS.

I'm not sure if i agree with your statement here. I've been partying with Drk/SAMs and well SAM/War and i don't think dual wield has more but weaker WS's. Have you ever partied with this jobs? SAM is supposed to be TP king... 5 hit TP builds are amazingly fast. Soboro? and Drk/SAM is really fast... not to mention they can drain TP (not super fast but if timed while the pull comes in its pretty damn good).

AoshiZ
Gilgamesh