New HNM Strategies

[netz]

Agree with Ryko. If you didn't use melees before due to TP moves or afraid of flail-type moves, you probably won't use them now.

We've used SAMs for just about every mob in the game prior to the update. Our last Tiamat kill was 42 minutes with a 7 SAM rotation on the ground, for example. This update just makes it faster.

totally jealous of you.

Last I knew, the only way to damage Tiamat on Garuda was with Garuda (har har)

We apparently don't mind wasting two and a half hours for a fire crystal.

[Xrave]

FF popped and we claimed and TP burned it in a little less than 10 min. We weren't even trying to do it that method...the melee just ended up raping it. That was only with 4 or 5 (couple Sams, couple Drks, a Thf).

[Tricen]

i was thinking to myself. "Maybe SE realizes some of these fights are a bit too long and they decided to fix that." Kinda seems true.. Knida glad too lol

[jmc]

Well... fucking around with AV on Phoenix right now. Wishful thinking for another ninja AV fix?

Well, after sac pulling for a good 20 minutes... setting up some various parties. Goes to grab a wyvern, AV does Comet then Meteor Right after. Looks like were done for the night lmao

[Akiyama]

Haha. Well there goes the "Throw sum 2Handers on that shit"

[BRP]

Well... fucking around with AV on Phoenix right now. Wishful thinking for another ninja AV fix?

Well, after sac pulling for a good 20 minutes... setting up some various parties. Goes to grab a wyvern, AV does Comet then Meteor Right after. Looks like were done for the night lmao

uhhh, there was a thread with a list of decent theories people wanted to test. Like killing aern, or yorva, or anything.

[evilpaul]

I read on Alla you need to activate all the Ebon Panels simultaneously.

[Lordender]

we don't even use a single melee on tiamat anymore(cept thf at end) we just nuke the fuck out of it when its in the air and smn dmg on the ground it dies in 40mins >.> it does maybe 2-3 tp moves on the ground the entire time cause it blasts it's tp in the air.

[Beckwin]

Instead of SMNs, have some SAMs do some med'd WS when it's on the ground.

Or just don't be scared of TP moves unless you've got a smaller group.

[Plow]

I will paypal $5 to the first person to post a video of an under 2 minute kirin fight with PURELY drg.


edit: I don't mean drg/whm and shit, I mean no "lawlz here's 10 drg and 2 kraken drk" crap.

[Sho]

I read on Alla you need to activate all the Ebon Panels simultaneously.

That joke played out, bro.

[Tensaiji]

we don't even use a single melee on tiamat anymore(cept thf at end) we just nuke the fuck out of it when its in the air and smn dmg on the ground it dies in 40mins >.> it does maybe 2-3 tp moves on the ground the entire time cause it blasts it's tp in the air.

This method really behooves me. It seems utterly fucking mundane and retarded to extract the joy from one of best HNM fights in the game by taking a steamy manaburn dump on it. Granted, it is impressive when groups of 14 or less are killing Tiamat in a timely fashion, regardless of setup. On Fairy it is extremely common to use manaburn tactics with 3 tanks on the mob, 2 tanks waiting in the wings, and 4+ WHMs down the slope ready to curebomb in the rare instance that a ZOMGTPMOVE may occur. My frustration is compounded by the fact that RDM/NIN has become the senseless tactical statement of 2007 and is implemented on mobs that aren't even its forte. Nothing makes me flaccid faster than watching a RDM/NIN spam sleeps/bind/dispel on a slept mob incessantly and then have the forthcoming damage be generated by low enmity BPs.

Tirade off. TG's been meleeburning shit from the start, and yeah, we've used those shunned 2handers and thieves as our DDs before they were ever really popular. I'm not asking for a special badge to tell me I'm original, just stating that we've been predisposed to melee tactics from the start. We have also been Hurricane Wing'd in excess of 35 times in a single Fafnir as a result of our melee affinity - truly amazing.

One idea I find mighty keen: meleeburning Ouryu. No, not traditional DDx3, BLMx4 template or what have you - I mean a 2 minute truckfest. 2 RDM/DRKs in enfeebling gear spam chainspell sleep (sleep lands somewhat reliably on Ouryu without ES with high skill) while the DDs go nuts and a PLD uses Invincible. Not an effective use of resources, but something outside of the norm. Ryko, let's try that knp. ^o^

[wop]

it does maybe 2-3 tp moves on the ground the entire time cause it blasts it's tp in the air.

Correction. When Tiamat touchdown, TP returns to 0%.
Reason you see 2-3 tp moves on ground because your SMN's pet assault it THEN BP, instead of running to it and BP. It has nothing to do with Infernoblast during flight.

And to Tensaiji, what is your point here apart from "zomg my LS is great at handling TP moves".
A kill is a kill. A Fast kill is also a Fast kill.

We can manaburn Tiamat in 20 mins ish when we spam nuke even when Tiamat is on land ie giving it opportunity to execute Roar or w/e, which is the same as your "throw melee at it" on land.
At the end of the day, A kill is still a kill. We both are able to handle Tiamat's Tp moves, so there is no reason to sus out BLM manaburn.

[Tensaiji]

it does maybe 2-3 tp moves on the ground the entire time cause it blasts it's tp in the air.

Correction. When Tiamat touchdown, TP returns to 0%.
Reason you see 2-3 tp moves on ground because your SMN's pet assault it THEN BP, instead of running to it and BP. It has nothing to do with Infernoblast during flight.

And to Tensaiji, what is your point here apart from "zomg my LS is great at handling TP moves".
A kill is a kill. A Fast kill is also a Fast kill.

We can manaburn Tiamat in 20 mins ish when we spam nuke even when Tiamat is on land ie giving it opportunity to execute Roar or w/e, which is the same as your "throw melee at it" on land.
At the end of the day, A kill is still a kill. We both are able to handle Tiamat's Tp moves, so there is no reason to sus out BLM manaburn.

My point was abundantly clear: I respect low-man feats (your blog and kaeko's come to mind), manaburn or otherwise, on HNMs. I feel that the experience is desensitized when you have 20+ people in the zone, using the same manaburn tactics. However, some people may find the cautious approach to be fun - but it does not seem adventurous to me. Also, a discrepancy in what I posted versus your reply: The LSes on my server do not nuke it on the ground. They do P. Claws the daylights out of it though.

Aggressive DDs and BLMs challenge a tank's prowess which in turn challenges the alertness of the support mages. Far be it for me to tell people how to play the game, but I do feel like they're selling themselves short by mindlessly adhering to LJ tactics they read about without so much as looking into why they do the things they do.

[TrueZero]

This isn't directly related to the melee usage of HNMs, but with shield bash (and weapon bash) being now an almost guaranteed stun (or even possibly 100%, I haven't tested it enough to see), PLDs and possibly NIN/DRKs are able to tank even more easily now. Trying out shield bash last night on Khimaira, you can definitely stop an inconvenient dreadstorm, buy yourself a few seconds for utsu recast, or even be a clutch fulmination stunner. And on Khimaira at least, you aren't even building it's stun resistance.

Has anyone's server seen a KB since maintenance and has tried shield bashing/weapon bashing meteor? If that works.. well, you'd likely see a lot of KB kills a lot closer to Behemoth killtimes.

It's really cool that PLD's moves used to all be simple hate generators, but now all actually have strategic uses.

[Kaeko]

it does maybe 2-3 tp moves on the ground the entire time cause it blasts it's tp in the air.

Correction. When Tiamat touchdown, TP returns to 0%.
Reason you see 2-3 tp moves on ground because your SMN's pet assault it THEN BP, instead of running to it and BP. It has nothing to do with Infernoblast during flight.

And to Tensaiji, what is your point here apart from "zomg my LS is great at handling TP moves".
A kill is a kill. A Fast kill is also a Fast kill.

We can manaburn Tiamat in 20 mins ish when we spam nuke even when Tiamat is on land ie giving it opportunity to execute Roar or w/e, which is the same as your "throw melee at it" on land.
At the end of the day, A kill is still a kill. We both are able to handle Tiamat's Tp moves, so there is no reason to sus out BLM manaburn.

My point was abundantly clear: I respect low-man feats (your blog and kaeko's come to mind), manaburn or otherwise, on HNMs. I feel that the experience is desensitized when you have 20+ people in the zone, using the same manaburn tactics. However, some people may find the cautious approach to be fun - but it does not seem adventurous to me. Also, a discrepancy in what I posted versus your reply: The LSes on my server do not nuke it on the ground. They do P. Claws the daylights out of it though.

Aggressive DDs and BLMs challenge a tank's prowess which in turn challenges the alertness of the support mages. Far be it for me to tell people how to play the game, but I do feel like they're selling themselves short by mindlessly adhering to LJ tactics they read about without so much as looking into why they do the things they do.

Our group happens to use BLM heavily just out of necessity due to smaller #s, not because we necesarily like to do it that way. A lot of our members have extremely decked out melee and probably what I'd consider sub-par BLMs, but it fits the strategy (like a Tiamat) better to take that under-merited/equipped Mage over a Melee in heavily reduced numbers. I believe when I first blogged the whole nuke in air, no TP on ground tactic, I even said its major drawback is you're turning one of the funnest fights in the game into the most boring. It's more an exploitation of resistance gear, touchdown reseting TP, and manaburn rather than a test of skill, which is why so many groups can easily copy it (it frankly doesn't require much skill to pull off - you can think of it more like a science rather than an art).

I do happen to agree with your assessment on melee usage. If you have larger #s, by all means please use your melees. It's faster and probably more fun for everyone. Using manaburn on say Tiamat is not better or worse than using heavy melee - as Wop said a kill is a kill. I do hope that some groups give more consideration to using 2hander jobs for this stuff now though - if you can abuse hoarding BLMs, I know for a fact you can abuse hoarding SAM/WARs for instance now.