Will They Fix It?

[levish]

re sam and SA not stacking could it be since all SA does for them is guarantee a crit and 100%hit on 1st shot, that they are approaching that pdif3.0 to begin with, not showing a difference between a forced crit (SA+WS) and what would have been the same damage as a crit (just WS)?

[Sendra]

Yes, but your WS damage and SATA regular hit damage(which count as spike damage in my book) is still better compare to your DoT damage.

What are you citing when you say that? Seems like you're making up facts.

So you are saying for all those 1k DE you do and SA or TA or Assasin regular hits add up all together, your regular attack add up to be more damage? If that's so then I congrat you to be the best melee job.

I'm speechless.

[Nameless]

Not exactly sure what you are trying to prove here, and not sure if you are thinking reversed but all I see is that the relic drg melee vs WS is 1:1 and yours is 2:1. For JoL the drg was likely doing meditate and jump in to WS so the WS:Melee was 2-5:1, but as the exp parser clearly showed that all other melees are 1:1 only you are 1:2.

So I guess you are trying to say that your DoT is better than alot of pure DDs and should therefore be used more instead of just for spike damage? So if your DoT is that good then what are you THFs complaining about the update? not exact sure what the point of your post is for but I for one think THF is perfectly balanced (which as your parser and post suggested, that you are in par with everyone else, and in other words you don't think THF need a boost either. /highfive). So I am not sure what your point is.

On a side note. You do realize that your JA SATA regular hits are counted as melee right? So in my original post saying that THF do bad DoT and good burst, that burst incluses SATA regular hits and assasin and all that craps. Taken out those and your mandau; your DoT worth nothing.

Again, thf is garbage DoT unless you have mandau. Not sure what your point is.

The drg wasnt subbing sam, sorry buddy.

I was TRYING to discredit your claim that "THF DOT IS LULZ, SPIEK DMG ONRY", but you're clearly lacking the branial capacity to comprend what I'm trying to say. This is exemplified because you're still claiming THF has spike damage advantage, yet as I allready denoted, Eaglestrike repeated, and I am about to repeat again, a non-relic sam (quality of gear is withstanding) has proven to rape a relic thief's damage on Fafnir, WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO CRIT THE HIT (though some people are saying that it no longer stacks with SA...perhaps all 2h WS are automatically landing as criticals?).


On a side note, when I fight JoL, I exclusively save SA for my WS, and pop TA whenever its up. Sometimes this rots my SA timer, and sometimes this rots my TP. But I'm slightly respective to those around me and dont pop a huge chunk of hate on other melee's. TA on JoL isnt exactly an epic 800 damage. I just checked the details of that parse, and the TA's I looked at landed for: 156, 143, 172, 186, 158, so say an average of 165. The fight took 50 minutes tops,(I remember joking on TS how its still summoning hpemde's and it was at 50%), and I didnt merit trick attack, so you're looking at ~8250 dmg due to Trick Attack. So Subtract that 8250 from melee, put it under abilities, and go figure, I'm still leading that dept.


Mandau isnt gamebreaking fot DoT. Its not putting me at the epicshitpile of drg's to competing for #1 on parse lists.

Not sure who is lacking the brain power as you made a mistake first by saying that your DoT : WS is 1:1 as of other do more WS than DoT. It only showed on the parser of JoL but on exp the drg had more DoT than WS damage. And sorry buddy, I am not in your server so I don't know what your drg buddy subbed. But if he was dealing more WS damage than his melee while subbing war, then I dont know if he either suck or his regular hit was just filtered by you (sarcasm).

Second of all, when I said Thf has the edge in burst damage I meant in comparison to their garbage DoT as AFTER the update. I got the sense that you are still living in pre update world so just a reminder. I also see that your melee critical top out at 850. I am telling you that normal non maudau users don't get that x3 damage or x2.5 damage on their regular critical, and if that didnt add to your DoT damage then I guess you were using SA on regular hit in merit party, which I consider burst damage.

In addition to that. Sams not subbing thf cuz for 2hand weapon users pDIF caps at 3.0 and since now we are always around 3.0, SA won't add anything to it if anything. So saying SAM burst out 1.5 or 1.7k WS WITHOUT SA is like telling me nothing, with SA their damage won't go up. But it is pointless cuz I never said that they do more burst damage than Drk, Drg, and Sam, I said in comparison to their sorry DoT now.

[Amele]

because, you know, hitting 2.0 every time is drastically different than hitting 1.6-2.4

That averages it out discounting the fact that well geared monks -are- going to hit on the high end of that range a little more reliably and that gimped out monks weren't. It does the same thing that the 2H thing does, force equilibrium so that standing out is nothing but aesthetic.

it sounds like we might be discussing two different things at the same time here.

unless there was a memo or test I missed, I was under the impression that 1.) cRatio cap was 2.0, which led to a pdif cap of 1.6 to 2.4 and
2.) func_pdif(cRatio) was gear/job independent, and accumulated around the median point between pdif_min and pdif_max.

the other thing I think we're talking about is 'cRatio's between 1.6 and 2.4(2.0)'; where there's the question about what happens between cRatio 1.667 and cRatio 2.000 (where you're high enough that pdif_max 'was' >2.0 but not yet high enough that cRatio is capped.) and I agree here, before, you could only reach the max func_pdif(cRatio) return at a 2.0 cRatio exactly. now, you'll see the maximum peak return at 1.667 (at least some of the time), so the only place left for increasingly powerful monks to stand out is the -average- return.

which I agree is pretty shitty, but (at least until we can start making estimates about how/if the distribution of func_pdif(cRatio) has changed between 1.667 and 2.0) we can't really answer whether or not there was an actual nerf of DOT, just a flattening of the high/low curve.

for the record, I'm leaning toward the new function being: MIN(func_pdif(cratio),2.0) which does actually mean a slight nerf of dot above 1.667 until cap, and if this is the case, I'd want it rolled back. but until we start making real tests in that area (1.6->2.0) we can't really say for sure.

[Nameless]

Again, thf is garbage DoT unless you have mandau. Not sure what your point is.

Are you retarded? Or do all THFs you party with melee in DEX or something?

The latter is true, kujata is home to some of the dumbest and laziest thf including our mandau's.

Then that's not my fault that they all suck in my server. Our relic scythe owners aren't too resourceful either. I doubt you Calble knows anything about 100 scythe. /sigh...

In general everyones an idiot on Kujata, but if you talk to Calble its clear he gets how 100 Scythe works and how his Apoc works and has the necessary merits to do it, he has some ludicruous beliefs about fTP but otherwise hes pretty knowledgeable.

K, cuz I saw him using Ninja on LS raid a few time, and I can't believe anyone would want to pass the incredible weapon unless he/she think, like a lot of the ppl pre 100 scythe, that relic scythe is lol.

[BRP]

I know I'm probably days old here, but was it confirmed base stats receive the same bonus on 2h?

[Nameless]

Yes, but your WS damage and SATA regular hit damage(which count as spike damage in my book) is still better compare to your DoT damage.

What are you citing when you say that? Seems like you're making up facts.

So you are saying for all those 1k DE you do and SA or TA or Assasin regular hits add up all together, your regular attack add up to be more damage? If that's so then I congrat you to be the best melee job.

I'm speechless.

I am speechless to you too if you don't bring some fact then we might as well talk in theory. I mean you really think your DoT do more than all your WS, SA TA Assasin all together?

[wintersquall]

not reading this whole topic, at work =P

but the changes were all meant to work hand-in-hand... SAM STR mod actually got nerfed, in case anyone noticed.



if they change anything in the damage other than DA proc (which would have to be for ALL classes, not just 2H), ,i'm afraid things are going to get royally screwed up >.>

it's been TWO days, jesus people. stop beating up colibris and imps, and go see how the changes REALLY affect the game.

[Amele]

I know I'm probably days old here, but was it confirmed base stats receive the same bonus on 2h?

yes. (at least definite for str=attack) so presumed for dex=acc.

I can post screenshots of my base STR only whitemage with higher attack on staff than club when I get home if you'd like, or you can ask your local mage to check it for you :)

[Ryko]

And Khim is generally considered one of the more dangerous mobs to be meleeing, so I guess it's cool that it's really worthwhile to feed shit tp now? Not to mention survivability of the DD is gonna be an issue when they're dropping 1.2k extremely frequently

I said without zerk because he was subbing thief, and so the hate's not an issue, and a SAM is known for being able to pull TP out of thin air, 3-4 hits before 33% aint killing anyone.

[levish]

I am speechless to you too if you don't bring some fact then we might as well talk in theory. I mean you really think your DoT do more than all your WS, SA TA Assasin all together?

including crits and double/triple attacks we are talking alot of straight damage in between SA/TA/WS, hitting for 30~70 a hand isn't uncommon. Hopefully the Thieve's you partied with are just forgetting to swap into their TP sets (and have well thought out sets). We are not talking about DOT damage like in the M. Kris/Hornetneedle days.

[Appie]

well i sure dont miss the days of "go lvl war or mnk if you want in merit pts"

Hmmm...
Considering out of all 2handers SAM probably got the most out of this patch and assuming SE doesn't change anything, give it a month before people go: "Go level SAM or gtfo of my merit pt!"

[NynJa]

this nameless guy is a fucking retard...I cant talk to him anymore.

[spooky]

K, cuz I saw him using Ninja on LS raid a few time, and I can't believe anyone would want to pass the incredible weapon unless he/she think, like a lot of the ppl pre 100 scythe, that relic scythe is lol.

He clearly plays WoW, so it's easy to see why.

[RKenshin]

stuff

So accuracy and crits should be irrelevant?

Well gee, what do you think? I didn't think to include the accuracy changes for that parse but that's way too complicated to delve into. Which again is why I made a point to say that the post can be taken with a grain of salt multiple times. And really if you want to see the results from attempting to show that then you're more than welcome to do the math yourself as all it consists of is simple middle school math.

Regardless, as Ryko pointed out I do think the 1 DEX = 1 Acc shouldn't be included. Getting rid of that would go a long way to making this much more fair and balanced, as opposed to how overpowered I believe it to be now.

And, I don't see how I failed to include the damage from critical hits. I added 40% to the overall damage total (which includes critical hits), and nothing about this update made 2h weapons more likely to land critical hits.

In any case, I would like you to try to define the DRG & DRK's 'great gear.'

I'd like to think I wouldn't have to define what exactly I would qualify as gear choices that are above average but use your imagination, it's really not difficult to figure out. I didn't say it was the best gear because it simply wasn't, but short of Sniper+1s/Adaman Hauberk/Speed Belts both the DRG and DRK had the ideal choices for gear (almost the same exact gear I have on DRK and would have as a 75 DRG at the time of the parse). I don't feel like listing every gear piece but just take me word for it, and yes I do have their exact gear setup.

And, since it would appear you already chose to discredit the results as being any kind of useful, it doesn't even matter any more.

[Lhexh]

Ruk needs to logon so we can do a Axe/Ridill WAR/NIN vs Amano SAM/WAR parse just to see how badly I get my ass kicked.

[RKenshin]

Think we're going to do that.

We'll try to replicate an old parse when I first got the relic. It was me and him in a PT (him as a decked out fully equipped/meritted Ridill WAR), both using Red Curry if I recall correctly, then another NQ WAR, two BRDs, and a RDM at the Mamool Ja Staging Point. We're going to try to get it as the exact same situation before to see how much of an improvement I have over his damage.

IIRC I outdamaged him by a few % (4 I think?) back then, so we can measure how much that changed now.

[BRP]

Looking back, it would be really nice if they removed base stats from the whole DEX = Acc / STR = Atk bonus.... so it only applies to gear. Might even be enough to balance it alone... but I would doubt it.

[BerenTebogo]

Fix 1-hand Pdif.

[Lhexh]

Just finished the party with Ruk now to see how far behind my Ridill WAR would be now. Here is a pic showing a parse we did before the update followed by the parse we just completed now. Both were at Mamool Ja Staging Point camping essentially right on top of the skoffins. The only changes in gear we have since the original update is Ruk has Usukane Legs and I have a Fire Bomblet. Both parties were me, Ruk, NQ 3rd DD [ First was a WAR/NIN, second was NIN/WAR ] with 2 BRDs [ Giving Madrigal, March, 2 Minuets ] and RDM. In the second parse the NIN Dc/d for over 15 minutes so his damage is heavily skewed but what matters is relative damage betwen Ruk and myself.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3...okensamwq9.jpg

I found myself getting shorted a few quite a bit so my WS average was a bit lower than normal, I usually get around 920-950 at this camp but it doesn't really change the clear outcome.

Pre-Update = Ruk's 355,849 to my 320, 895 which was 10.9% more damage than me.
Post-Update = Ruk's 329,986 to my 225,211 which is 46.5% more damage than me.

Broken? Just a tad bit.....