Will They Fix It?

[Priran]

I'm gonna go level SAM now

[RKenshin]

I was actually kind of surprised to see that melee DoT wise we were basically the same... I thought if anything the new melee DoT after this update would be the killer part. So the most overpowering part of the update would have to be the WS damage increases?

[aurik]

Or you could say that the WS increase is justified and there's no way a Samurai should be matching a ridill war in melee output.

[Shuemue]

So if we reduce Ruke's dmg by 25% to account for his good gear, then yeah, an AH Samurai with half a brain will match a ridill war?

[RKenshin]

Or you could say that the WS increase is justified and there's no way a Samurai should be matching a ridill war in melee output.

There's no way a SAM with a relic weapon should be matching a Ridill WAR in melee DoT output* ?

Which honestly I don't agree with, regardless of whether I'm a SAM with a relic or a DRK with a relic. Because there's no chance in hell I'd match his DoT if I didn't have the relic... So really that comes down to believing whether or not a relic weapon should be outclassed in DoT by a drop off of an HNM.

Just like Spharai shouldn't be outclassed by Destroyers (not that it is now).

[Tajin]

So if we reduce Ruke's dmg by 25% to account for his good gear, then yeah, an AH Samurai with half a brain will match a ridill war?

but if its the same gear, which means snipers (i think), what happens if you equip lol DEX rings? <.<

Edit: or switch out some ACC and put some STR or ATK

[Jkun]

How about they show us our Acc in the Equipment menu. Please.

As for my contribution, it's about time melee could be of more use on HNM and the like alongside BLM. Heavy SC damage and a heavy MB is really balancing out the game, rather than weak weapon damage and relying on throwing BLM after BLM on mobs. It's about time melee got a go at fighting "big stuff" as I like to call it.

In before whoosh etc. etc. etc.

[Eaglestrike]

Did you mostly use Kaiten in both parties? Because the damage boost of a Samurai will be much bigger for walmart sams if you factor in that patched Gekko/Kasha is stronger than pre-patch. I do believe Kaiten is the same formula?

[shirak]

Ruk, you have relic Great Katana right? I mean this with the greatest respect; your parses seem not relevant to add to the common knowledge base about the update.

We cant look at your parses and say, yep, 2handers need to be nerfed because you're using a relic for christs sake under the new system. That's hardly the average..

edit: of course they are relevant, but should be taken with a laugh and a grain of salt because Ruk is to Melee what Avesta is to Rdms.

[ringthree]

I was actually kind of surprised to see that melee DoT wise we were basically the same... I thought if anything the new melee DoT after this update would be the killer part. So the most overpowering part of the update would have to be the WS damage increases?

What WS were you using? Have the adjustments to the higher tier SAM WS made them better than Kaiten?

[RKenshin]

So if we reduce Ruke's dmg by 25% to account for his good gear, then yeah, an AH Samurai with half a brain will match a ridill war?

Not at all.

I've PTed with a few SAMs now over the last few days and without GK they lose a shitload of damage off of getting similar results to me. The actual % is more like 50-70% less damage than I do.

Their melee average is around 80 damage lower, WS average is around 400 damage lower, they have around 30% less # of swings, 30% less # of WS, and around 5-10% less accuracy. It adds up to much more than 25% lower than me.

[NynJa]

Ruk, you have relic Great Katana right? I mean this with the greatest respect; your parses seem not relevant to add to the common knowledge base about the update.

We cant look at your parses and say, yep, 2handers need to be nerfed because you're using a relic for christs sake under the new system. That's hardly the average..

you're an idiot...

the basis of the parse isnt "Amanourkasiasianiko vs Ridill", it's "2h vs 1h: then and now", and the parse clearly shows the difference between then and now.

[RKenshin]

Did you mostly use Kaiten in both parties? Because the damage boost of a Samurai will be much bigger for walmart sams if you factor in that patched Gekko/Kasha is stronger than pre-patch. I do believe Kaiten is the same formula?

Kaiten is much stronger to spam with high values of attack, and I used it 100% of the time in that PT, minus like once during 2h.

Ruk, you have relic Great Katana right? I mean this with the greatest respect; your parses seem not relevant to add to the common knowledge base about the update.

We cant look at your parses and say, yep, 2handers need to be nerfed because you're using a relic for christs sake under the new system. That's hardly the average..

edit: of course they are relevant, but should be taken with a laugh and a grain of salt because Ruk is to Melee what Avesta is to Rdms.

My parses have more been to show how insanely stupid strong GK SAM is now, and what the update did in general to the strength of 2h weapons. IE, showing the % increases in melee/WS damage averages now. And in this post, comparing parse results before and after. Honestly I should've just blocked out the damage % and total damage #s because people spend more time looking at that than the point of the parse, which was to show my melee/WS averages now.

What WS were you using? Have the adjustments to the higher tier SAM WS made them better than Kaiten?

Kaiten full time, and it's still the best choice for most situations.

[shirak]

A good experiment deals with norms I'd assume. A relic is hardly a norm.

I stand by what I said, I'd like to see average 2handers vs average duelwielders before I jump to conclusions in two days when SE has taken months to conider these changes.

and.. you're a towel?

[RKenshin]

I'm a towel? lol

And I've been saying I want to see more parses from other people, just that no one else seems to be doing them. =.= But something is better than nothing still.

Originally for this PT I wanted to use Onimaru on SAM instead of Relic GK to see how it compared, but ended up doing this test instead.

[shirak]

Haha nah, we're posting too quickly, I was responding to nynja's post.

Thanks for your responses Ruk and when you state you are focusing on showing the ws damage has jumped significantly, you're right, it is stark.

I think I subscribe to the idea that a 2 hander should do a heavier ws.

[Plow]

However meaningless they may be, it's interesting to note a couple small things:

The original manual that came with the US version (with zilart included) describes thief as a class that does more utility-type stuff than direct damage, but they're the only job with that kind of comment.


The good ole prima guide (which is completely supported by SE) specifically says in the dark knight part that they deal the most damage of any class period, and if I'm remembering correctly it states in the samurai and dragoon parts that they're the only ones capable of coming close to matching drk.



I'm aware that these are both completely laughable things to base any kind of an argument on, but they are food for thought at least.

[Nagamaki]

Kaiten wasn't directly modified by the patch, the improvement to your damage is exclusively from the non WS specific parts of the patch (attack boost, universal 3.0 pdif cap, likely lvCorr change (not directly tested, but HNM numbers really seriously hint that they did do that))

In fact assuming the tests posted in the WS thread are accurate, other SAM WS didn't change a whole lot in themselves, in fact a Hagun WS 100% to 200% has the exact same fTP it used to have, other GKs just got a 16% increase to their fTP at 100%. The WS changes for SAM mean very little compared to the rest of the factors including the fact that every GKT was given an acc boost of double the two-handed relic standard just for being there. If you compare the parses, its fairly clear accuracy was already about as capped as can be given the factors of the camp, clearly shown by the fact that the +40ish accuracy bonus to Rukenshin barely registered in effective accuracy. In a different camp, without madrigal or with reduced acc on other gear or for a weapon without a native acc+20, that bonus would actually be a factor, whereas it is basically wasted here.

It cannot be overstated how big a deal that accuracy is, and this factor very much needs to be understood by anyone trying to use that parse data in comparisons.

[Shuemue]

Would sure be interesting to see that parse with min/min/mar/mar

[RKenshin]

Again, the parses are more to compare before/after WS/melee averages than to show the damage output of myself vs whoever. This parse in particular was the only one that was comparing me more to a single person than anything else, but it was to show the % increase in my damage output against a solid constant.