Will They Fix It?

[BRP]

That's the gear the PLD was wearing, nothing special at all.

Yeah, it's crazy/powerful, I agree, I'm just saying it's not much different than a DRK or WAR doing the same, so not much use bringing up PLD like it's more absurd.

[RKenshin]

Is that a 300% TP Ground Strike?

If so this whole debate about that damage is pretty stupid, because with 300% TP you could always do damage like that with that WS. Albeit not so much with /WAR in the past, but in any case it's a retarded argument because saving to 300% TP for any WS is retarded and lowers your DoT.

The WS buff didn't really help you though Ruk since you use Kaiten, it almost all can be traced back to the 3.0 pdif increase along with the extra attack from 1str=1att that helps you reach that cap so easily.

I just mean that in essense I still did get a WS buff from the changes made by the patch, just not exclusively like the other 2h weapon skills.

[Shuemue]

Is that a 300% TP Ground Strike?

Can't answer that, sorry.

[Kiarax]

Is that a 300% TP Ground Strike?

Can't answer that, sorry.

The guy who posted that on KI said it was, so yeah, it's not all that amazing though he had some other decent numbers.

[Shuemue]

You're French, I'm unable to believe anything you say.

[Kiarax]

His post saying it was 300%.

And I'm not French, I moved here from England a couple of months ago. >_>

[Shuemue]

His post saying it was 300%.

And I'm not French, I moved here from England a couple of months ago. >_>

Fine, you may be correct about the TP, but English and moved to France? I have every right to question your sanity!

[RKenshin]

Pretty sure a well-equipped MNK with capped staff and songs could put up similar numbers with 300% TP Full Swings... But in reality just like for that PLD I wouldn't find it all too impressive or practical. Especially using staff on MNK to begin with lol.

[Amastacia]

My accuracy was also typically bumping up next to the accuracy cap anyway before this update as well* even without Madrigal. Forgot to add.

So basically this patch increased your damage by roughly 35% and that doesn't include the accuracy buff or the WS buff.

As far as accuracy goes, yes.

However the WS buff added a good 500 damage on top of my WS average (increase of like 50%, so very significant). The only benefit I'm not really feeling on SAM is the gain in accuracy.

However don't use this as a benchmark for comparing me to other SAMs because as I said it's just a whole new ball game. The average AH SAM I've PTed with so far does around 50-70% less damage than I do.

The part that scares me is what happens when the average AH SAM realizes that the rules have changed. There may be a 50-70% damage difference now because of the combination of incorrect gear choices and (let's be honest) a great degree less skill/smarts about maximizing ones performance in this game. One of those is remediable given some time and enough people spouting the same crap (just like any other paradigm shift happens in FFXI), one is not.

Problem is the one that can be remedied currently has such a potentially huge impact that no skill won't matter for all that much when you think about it. How much practice or analysis of FFXI does it take when you're handed a method of having your cake (high Acc) and eating it too (high Att)?

The patch is two days old, the thing that scares me is when the changes come to full fruition (assuming SE hasn't the intelligence to fix it first) and what is a non-issue for you becomes the key for the average to explode upwards.

[Loren]

The original manual that came with the US version (with zilart included) describes thief as a class that does more utility-type stuff than direct damage, but they're the only job with that kind of comment.

I think this is what's making THFs anxious.

Our "sneaky/tactical/utility" abilities are a complete joke.

Provoke, Shadowbind, Stun, Angon, etc. are not direct DD abilities but they're nice secondary perks that group leaders will often work into a strategy, and they're all found on jobs that are considered pure DD. How often does a group event utilize Steal, Hide, Flee, or Mug? Virtually never.

The only way to avoid THF obsolescence at this point is to restore some power to 1-handed weapons, OR give the job a large array of new abilities to dominate the tactical side of events. Disguise as enemy or teammate, set traps, use secret doors, smokescreen for AoE Hide--stuff like that designed by someone more creative than I. I'd happily accept either a return to vicious DD or a new mastermind/safecracker role but at this point we're very far from either.

[Ploid]

Mug is a joke in and of itself. Kinda like gauge -_-.

Edit: Using hide more than one time for a HNM fight is slow and you'd have to kick the thf out of the party after he's done or let him go off and gain tp for 4mins and 30 seconds or so. Then he use sata hide ws again and back to tping. It's better to just use TA. Not worth utilizing hide unless it's for epeen, rotating jobs, or a one time thing. But it's good on short fights like exp vs mobs you can hide while you're on hate list.

I dont' like Aura steal much. It's good at times like stealing boost from JoL, but it's so random and such. Oh well one extra dispel is always good I guess.

[Priran]

Feint is better than anything MNK gets.

[Ploid]

Yes, gotta love feint. I like thf the way it is. It's not bad at all, I can solo a lot of stuff, and merit, and am also useful in hnm fights. Just that there is no way you can get a great use out of mug for a fight strategically unless you get 3k out of it. Not saying I think it should be replaced or have a spike dmg added to it. I was just replying to the person that posted before my last. Although new toys and such for thf would be welcome for sure. We're kinda lacking on our bag of tricks. Give us more reasons to carry key ring belt around, and keys/tools.

I think all jobs have at least one trait, ability, or spell that's just right out useless in groups. Trying to build drg/whm into a main heal or support heal for tank party sounds as wacky as changing the role of a huge defensive tackle to a punter. He can kick but he's not exactly built for kicking.

[RKenshin]

On certain mobs I'd wager fully meritted Penance could be just as useful if not more actually. It's really amazing on Chariots/Bosses/Gears/etc.

My team would have a Penance Chi-Blast rotation on every Chariot/Boss fight in Salvage and it really makes a considerable difference in TP attack spam, which is incredibly helpful for MP and ability to tank.

[solsovly]

That's the gear the PLD was wearing, nothing special at all.

Yeah, it's crazy/powerful, I agree, I'm just saying it's not much different than a DRK or WAR doing the same, so not much use bringing up PLD like it's more absurd.

There is a difference. It's high unlikely that a PLD will have GSword merits (but maybe likely after this update). There is a 19 skill in difference between the two along with 4 attack up traits. So that is 19 + 48 = 67 atk difference right off the bat not to mention the extra acc. 2k on some very meh geared pld is absurd.

[Alisha]

On certain mobs I'd wager fully meritted Penance could be just as useful if not more actually. It's really amazing on Chariots/Bosses/Gears/etc.

My team would have a Penance Chi-Blast rotation on every Chariot/Boss fight in Salvage and it really makes a considerable difference in TP attack spam, which is incredibly helpful for MP and ability to tank.

pennace is a thankless ability though. its one of those abilities SE gave us when they were afraid of another destroyers calibur fuck up.

[RKenshin]

The part that scares me is what happens when the average AH SAM realizes that the rules have changed. There may be a 50-70% damage difference now because of the combination of incorrect gear choices and (let's be honest) a great degree less skill/smarts about maximizing ones performance in this game. One of those is remediable given some time and enough people spouting the same crap (just like any other paradigm shift happens in FFXI), one is not.

Well, from one side this update has given people more of a reason to deck out their 2h DDs (including SAM) that they otherwise didn't before, but from the other side people have been spouting the same ideas on the ideal equipment setups for a long time now, with evidence to support all of it... But there are always a good deal of people that refuse to equip themselves in those setups on the premace that they:

1) Flat out don't believe it and refuse to regardless of the evidence.
2) Will swear on their life they tried the gear set and had worse results, and therefor refuse to equip themselves like so.
3) Can't afford to optimize their gear in that setup.
4) Have their own way of doing it that they'd rather do, regardless of if it's worse.
5) Just don't care.

It's really easy to find examples of the above everywhere on Allah and sometimes KI, and even BG once and a while. I remember when I first advocated a haste set on SAM and got skeptical posts following it on KI until I posted many of my results/logic behind it, and even after all of that people refused to believe Haste was a good idea for SAM for months after (and even now I still get questions on it). At one point I think I remember that thread getting bumped like 6 months after when there was an argument over Haste being retarded for SAM.

For the most part though I think that the average DD tends to use some reason from those 5 examples as to why they won't try to be their best... And frankly a large amount of people just don't care that much about being as good as they can. So in hindsight I don't see that changing for a good deal of people. No doubt there will be a good amount that take advantage of equipping themselves properly for 2h jobs within the near future, but I'd wager that a majority of them still won't whether by choice or not.

EDIT:

On certain mobs I'd wager fully meritted Penance could be just as useful if not more actually. It's really amazing on Chariots/Bosses/Gears/etc.

My team would have a Penance Chi-Blast rotation on every Chariot/Boss fight in Salvage and it really makes a considerable difference in TP attack spam, which is incredibly helpful for MP and ability to tank.

pennace is a thankless ability though. its one of those abilities SE gave us when they were afraid of another destroyers calibur fuck up.

I'm not really sure what you mean by it being a thankless ability?

[Nagamaki]

People being stupid and slow to adjust doesn't make something not grossly overdone, and STR gear in general isn't exactly violently expensive. 2 BRD setups dropping madrigal also isn't exactly a huge cost, not to mention that with the COR buff, COR+BRD will be really viable now, allowing different buff combos (once more ppl level COR anyway). Madrigal for 2handers is now as useful as sushi when your accuracy is already capped, it does absolutely nothing.

Poor players will perform relatively poorly because buffs don't make you know what you're doing, that has no relevance to judging the effect of this buff.

In Salvage, SAM was already an awesome combo with a MNK, allowing pretty much any run to be done with 3 melee (1 MNK tank/dd 1 SAM sc/dd 1 THF 35-th/dd) with support/some nukers. SAM damage in Salvage went straight through the roof, which is nice to some extent but really it just made it pretty pathetic.

[RKenshin]

My point in all of that post wasn't in any way trying to justify how overlly drastic (and overpowering) the improvements this update provided for 2H jobs were, but just points on how I doubt we'll see every 2h user under the sun take full (or even near-full) advantage of the potential damage output they have now. I'd even wager a majority of them will fail to whether by their own choices or not.

It's not to say this update hasn't broken 2h jobs any less because of that fact, but I just don't think we'll ever see masses of people that are all capable of generating the same amounts of incredibly high output/DoT as eachother with little to no variations from person to person.

[Alisha]

On certain mobs I'd wager fully meritted Penance could be just as useful if not more actually. It's really amazing on Chariots/Bosses/Gears/etc.

My team would have a Penance Chi-Blast rotation on every Chariot/Boss fight in Salvage and it really makes a considerable difference in TP attack spam, which is incredibly helpful for MP and ability to tank.

pennace is a thankless ability though. its one of those abilities SE gave us when they were afraid of another destroyers calibur fuck up.

I'm not really sure what you mean by it being a thankless ability?[/quote]

1.not likely to be appreciated or rewarded; unappreciated: a thankless job.
2.not feeling or expressing gratitude or appreciation; ungrateful: a thankless child.

—Synonyms 1. unacknowledged, vain, unrewarding, profitless.