Will They Fix It?

[Sekkite]

I don't parse a lot (nor do I merit a lot anymore, frankly) but I can tell you that pre-update, well-geared any job was never more than 10% behind. Frankly I find the claim that shivas claws af1 mnk > drk or drg with pimp gears a bit suspect.

I'd hardly say my gear is pimp, but my gear was a fuckton better then his gear and he out-parsed me by a good margin. And I am really curious how you define well-geared. Give me a gear-setup of a well-geared DRK or DRG using a two-handed weapon (non-relic) that would never parse more then 10% behind a well-geared MNK or WAR or NIN (provide their gear setup as well) pre-update.

Could 2handers have used a bit of a buff? Yea sure. But SE should have fixed the problem the right way (heavily buffing what makes the job special, gently buffing 2h weapons in general), instead of the current poorly-thought out and poorly-tested design.

They did heavily buff what makes the jobs special. They also "gently" buffed to 2-handed weapons. Changes to Jumps? Wyvern not tied to two-hour? Absorb-TP? Drain II? Dread Spikes? Hasso? Seigan? Normalizing TP gain which also boosted all two-handed weapon TP gain?

It did jack shit. It didn't solve the problem at it's very core, which was two-handed weapons.

[aurik]

I don't parse a lot (nor do I merit a lot anymore, frankly) but I can tell you that pre-update, well-geared any job was never more than 10% behind. Frankly I find the claim that shivas claws af1 mnk > drk or drg with pimp gears a bit suspect.

I'd hardly say my gear is pimp, but my gear was a fuckton better then his gear and he out-parsed me by a good margin. And I am really curious how you define well-geared. Give me a gear-setup of a well-geared DRK or DRG using a two-handed weapon (non-relic) that would never parse more then 10% behind a well-geared MNK or WAR or NIN.

No, seriously, I shamed shitty wars and mnks (15-20% to 35-40%) but a pimp <otherjob> would very commonly be in the 25-30 range. Must be something wrong with you, or maybe you're just understating what he had.

[quote:70486]Could 2handers have used a bit of a buff? Yea sure. But SE should have fixed the problem the right way (heavily buffing what makes the job special, gently buffing 2h weapons in general), instead of the current poorly-thought out and poorly-tested design.

They did heavily buff what makes the jobs special (at least in the case of DRG and DRK they did). They also "gently" buffs to 2-handed weapons. Changes to Jumps? Wyvern not tied to two-hour? Absorb-TP? Drain II? Dread Spikes? Normalizing TP gain which also boosted all two-handed weapon TP gain?

It did jack shit. It didn't solve the problem at it's very core, which was two-handed weapons.[/quote:70486]

So if they did buff what made the job special how come everyone is still pooh-poohing those capabilities? Apparently they didn't heavily buff it, according to the player base.

[Plow]

Wait wait wait. So you're not even saying 10% less than you as in like 33% to 30%, you're saying 35-40% to 25-30%?


With equal gear?


And that's fucking reasonable to you? And now we're supposed to agree with you qq'ing about people in merits that you don't even do and refuse to parse because you know you're talking out your ass at this point?

So if they did buff what made the job special how come everyone is still pooh-poohing those capabilities? Apparently they didn't heavily buff it, according to the player base.

Because 2h weapons were horribly broken and utter trash. It's not a difficult concept.

[Sekkite]

I don't parse a lot (nor do I merit a lot anymore, frankly) but I can tell you that pre-update, well-geared any job was never more than 10% behind. Frankly I find the claim that shivas claws af1 mnk > drk or drg with pimp gears a bit suspect.

I'd hardly say my gear is pimp, but my gear was a fuckton better then his gear and he out-parsed me by a good margin. And I am really curious how you define well-geared. Give me a gear-setup of a well-geared DRK or DRG using a two-handed weapon (non-relic) that would never parse more then 10% behind a well-geared MNK or WAR or NIN.

No, seriously, I shamed shitty wars and mnks (15-20% to 35-40%) but a pimp <otherjob> would very commonly be in the 25-30 range. Must be something wrong with you, or maybe you're just understating what he had.

What? That made no sense.

[quote:38d16][quote:38d16]Could 2handers have used a bit of a buff? Yea sure. But SE should have fixed the problem the right way (heavily buffing what makes the job special, gently buffing 2h weapons in general), instead of the current poorly-thought out and poorly-tested design.

They did heavily buff what makes the jobs special (at least in the case of DRG and DRK they did). They also "gently" buffs to 2-handed weapons. Changes to Jumps? Wyvern not tied to two-hour? Absorb-TP? Drain II? Dread Spikes? Normalizing TP gain which also boosted all two-handed weapon TP gain?

It did jack shit. It didn't solve the problem at it's very core, which was two-handed weapons.[/quote:38d16]

So if they did buff what made the job special how come everyone is still pooh-poohing those capabilities? Apparently they didn't heavily buff it, according to the player base.[/quote:38d16]

How should I put this.

What SE has been doing is like replacing parts of a car. New spoilers, new speakers, new battery, ect, but leaving in a terrible engine. You could improve all you wanted to all other parts of the car, but the car would still perform terribly with a terrible engine.

[Alisha]

your missing the point. drg has its amazing wyvern wich it appears most drgs DO NOT embrace as well as jumps that can be double attacked and sneak attacked. my drg is only level 54 and reconized the power of the wyvern before level 10. i dont know much about drk having never played it but they have a fair amount of spells and higher elemental magic than rdm. i actually believe that bluemage is a reimagining of drk. meaninwhile monk has nothing but fists and kicks. chakra is cool but its definately no healing breath and more often than not use use it to clear status effects and not to heal. chi blast is too specialized to be used in an exp pt maybe if i could use tp to charge it instead of just boost. so now drk and drg have those things on top of equal damage potential,maybe even more damage potential in the case of drg due piercing weak mobs and the wyverns DoT.

Did I stumble into alla here?

So instead of making wyverns more resilient to AoE (ie, fixing the real problem), lets just make the game mechanics brokenly favor anyone with a 2handed weapon.

Yeah, that's exactly what he meant. The post was ridiculous, why would you pick an argument based on drk nuking (with II spells that are somehow higher than III spells) and the wyvern to support.

you totally missed the point and are only seeing what you want to see.

if a pre patch monk is sonic the hedgehog

then sam/drg/drk were tails

sure tails cant run as fast as sonic but he can fly. but now he can fly as well as run the same speed as sonic. its not my problem if you were ignoring your ability to fly and instead were trying to run the same speed as sonic.

[Sekkite]

your missing the point. drg has its amazing wyvern wich it appears most drgs DO NOT embrace as well as jumps that can be double attacked and sneak attacked. my drg is only level 54 and reconized the power of the wyvern before level 10. i dont know much about drk having never played it but they have a fair amount of spells and higher elemental magic than rdm. i actually believe that bluemage is a reimagining of drk. meaninwhile monk has nothing but fists and kicks. chakra is cool but its definately no healing breath and more often than not use use it to clear status effects and not to heal. chi blast is too specialized to be used in an exp pt maybe if i could use tp to charge it instead of just boost. so now drk and drg have those things on top of equal damage potential,maybe even more damage potential in the case of drg due piercing weak mobs and the wyverns DoT.

Did I stumble into alla here?

So instead of making wyverns more resilient to AoE (ie, fixing the real problem), lets just make the game mechanics brokenly favor anyone with a 2handed weapon.

Yeah, that's exactly what he meant. The post was ridiculous, why would you pick an argument based on drk nuking (with II spells that are somehow higher than III spells) and the wyvern to support.

you totally missed the point and are only seeing what you want to see.

if a pre patch monk is sonic the hedgehog

then sam/drg/drk were tails

sure tails cant run as fast as sonic but he can fly. but now he can fly as well as run the same speed as sonic. its not my problem if you were ignoring your ability to fly and instead were trying to run the same speed as sonic.

Yes, let dragoons super jump colibris to death!

Oh wait.

Hrm. Let wyverns cure status ailments! Oh wait, can't cure Amnesia and the only other status effect you'd get from imps is silence. Funny how that works out, huh?

For HNMs, lets sub DRGs in for weapon skill damage!

Go go Wheeling Thrust, able to do half the damage of any respectable weapon skill!




Seriously though Alisha, you really don't think your arguments through.

[FinalJustice]

you totally missed the point and are only seeing what you want to see.

if a pre patch monk is sonic the hedgehog

then sam/drg/drk were tails

sure tails cant run as fast as sonic but he can fly. but now he can fly as well as run the same speed as sonic. its not my problem if you were ignoring your ability to fly and instead were trying to run the same speed as sonic.

Actually In Sonic The Hedgehog 2 Tails ran at the exact same speed as Sonic. I think he did so in 3 as well. But then some point after that Sega NERFED Tails to be slower then sonic to make them both more "different"

Carry on.

[Alisha]

love how you only chose worst case scenarios there. because clearly another job can remove amnesia right?

[BRP]

Why are we arguing over moot points?

The 2-hand change was too much. A change was certainly necessary for all of the jobs that were effected(SAM, DRK, Gaxe WAR, AND DRG) because 2-hand weapon mechanics just didn't match up. Whether or not DRG was a support job doesn't really matter... in the same way a ranged attack fix wouldn't matter between RNG, SAM, and COR.

That's the problem. It was too much. Should be toned down. Stop bringing up a DRG's ability to Healing Breath.

[Machazareel]

Man, if I hadn't quit I'd totally go get myself killed a bunch on SAM. These changes seem rather ridiculous to me. Nice intentions, but poor methods.

[Sekkite]

love how you only chose worst case scenarios there. because clearly another job can remove amnesia right?

The point I was trying to make is that a dragoon's innate job abilities and wyvern abilities are worthless on their own merit for meriting and HNMs.

For the healing breath, no other meriting mob gives a status effect, and so I chose the only one that gives status effects in general. It wasn't a worst case scenario, it was an only case scenario.

Why are we arguing over moot points?

The 2-hand change was too much. A change was certainly necessary for all of the jobs that were effected(SAM, DRK, Gaxe WAR, AND DRG) because 2-hand weapon mechanics just didn't match up. Whether or not DRG was a support job doesn't really matter... in the same way a ranged attack fix wouldn't matter between RNG, SAM, and COR.

That's the problem. It was too much. Should be toned down. Stop bringing up a DRG's ability to Healing Breath.

I really wish someone would post a parse showing how these changes were too much. I've seen a parse of a decked out samurai getting top damage in a party over a WAR/NIN (which, in a perfectly balanced game, should happen if the Samurai has better gear/merits). I've yet to see a single parse that shows a DRK or a DRG out damaging WAR/NIN or MNK/WAR.

[Kazen]

love how you only chose worst case scenarios there. because clearly another job can remove amnesia right?

The point I was trying to make is that a dragoon's innate job abilities and wyvern abilities are worthless on their own merit for meriting and HNMs.

For the healing breath, no other meriting mob gives a status effect, and so I chose the only one that gives status effects in general. It wasn't a worst case scenario, it was an only case scenario.

Why are we arguing over moot points?

The 2-hand change was too much. A change was certainly necessary for all of the jobs that were effected(SAM, DRK, Gaxe WAR, AND DRG) because 2-hand weapon mechanics just didn't match up. Whether or not DRG was a support job doesn't really matter... in the same way a ranged attack fix wouldn't matter between RNG, SAM, and COR.

That's the problem. It was too much. Should be toned down. Stop bringing up a DRG's ability to Healing Breath.

I really wish someone would post a parse showing how these changes were too much. I've seen a parse of a decked out samurai getting top damage in a party over a WAR/NIN (which, in a perfectly balanced game, should happen if the Samurai has better gear/merits). I've yet to see a single parse that shows a DRK or a DRG out damaging WAR/NIN or MNK/WAR.

Pretty easy to see it's to much....... Want an example? Our last Proto-Omega Xavier went sam with his Suburo (sp 3 hit katana), anyways that low damage great katana was doing 100-120 per hit and 1000+ ws's every time to proto-omega, thats pretty broken.

[Sekkite]

love how you only chose worst case scenarios there. because clearly another job can remove amnesia right?

The point I was trying to make is that a dragoon's innate job abilities and wyvern abilities are worthless on their own merit for meriting and HNMs.

For the healing breath, no other meriting mob gives a status effect, and so I chose the only one that gives status effects in general. It wasn't a worst case scenario, it was an only case scenario.

Why are we arguing over moot points?

The 2-hand change was too much. A change was certainly necessary for all of the jobs that were effected(SAM, DRK, Gaxe WAR, AND DRG) because 2-hand weapon mechanics just didn't match up. Whether or not DRG was a support job doesn't really matter... in the same way a ranged attack fix wouldn't matter between RNG, SAM, and COR.

That's the problem. It was too much. Should be toned down. Stop bringing up a DRG's ability to Healing Breath.

I really wish someone would post a parse showing how these changes were too much. I've seen a parse of a decked out samurai getting top damage in a party over a WAR/NIN (which, in a perfectly balanced game, should happen if the Samurai has better gear/merits). I've yet to see a single parse that shows a DRK or a DRG out damaging WAR/NIN or MNK/WAR.

Pretty easy to see it's to much....... Want an example? Our last Proto-Omega Xavier went same with his Suburo (sp 3 hit katana), anyways that low damage great katana was doing 100-120 per hit and 1000+ ws's every time to proto-omega, thats pretty broken.

Well, Xavier's gear in general is pretty pimped. I'd still like to see a parser though. Just giving me the numbers he was doing per hit and his WS numbers is not enough, as that doesn't show other other factors, such as support (BRD(s) and/or COR) or how other jobs were doing by comparison (which is pretty much the entire point of this whole thread). Also, that is an argument for nerfing SAM's damage, not two-handed weapons in general. Where is the DRK or DRG massively out-damaging all one-handed weapons when using a scythe/polearm?

[Eaglestrike]

Main reason you haven't seen a parse is because the parsers most people are using have been broken, not that people are lying. I merited with a SAM/WAR and DRK/SAM on Trolls yesterday, I beat that same drk/sam 33%-36% just before the patch, so we both have same gear and just the patch changed things. Between the SAM and the DRK I almost never even took hate. I only had shadows taken from me if I was the first person to attack the mob or for a couple swings after I used my WS. In a merit party I TRY to take hate, I want to tank, and since I was only one with shadows I had more reason to be trying to take hate. But I couldn't do that, they both did too much more damage than me. Now neither are AH-only, they have decent gear (SAM has fairly expensive gear, DRK has some harder to get pieces) but neither has a relic and I do so we 'should' be fairly close, going by enmity levels, we weren't at all.

[Sekkite]

Main reason you haven't seen a parse is because the parsers most people are using have been broken, not that people are lying. I merited with a SAM/WAR and DRK/SAM on Trolls yesterday, I beat that same drk/sam 33%-36% just before the patch, so we both have same gear and just the patch changed things. Between the SAM and the DRK I almost never even took hate. I only had shadows taken from me if I was the first person to attack the mob or for a couple swings after I used my WS. In a merit party I TRY to take hate, I want to tank, and since I was only one with shadows I had more reason to be trying to take hate. But I couldn't do that, they both did too much more damage than me. Now neither are AH-only, they have decent gear (SAM has fairly expensive gear, DRK has some harder to get pieces) but neither has a relic and I do so we 'should' be fairly close, going by enmity levels, we weren't at all.

Well, DRK has a number of JA's that give enmity, but the SAM, I dunno. Most of the complaints I've heard post-patch were centered around how SAM changed due to the two-handed weapon change.

However, regarding parses, dvsparse is working. http://sourceforge.net/projects/dvsparse/

[Krandor]

Cutting out alot of stuff so it doesn't form a huge quote train....

Well, Xavier's gear in general is pretty pimped.

So it's ok for it to be imbalanced if they have good gear?

[Sekkite]

Cutting out alot of stuff so it doesn't form a huge quote train....

Well, Xavier's gear in general is pretty pimped.

So it's ok for it to be imbalanced if they have good gear?

I could ask the same thing to all those indignant WARs with Ridill. And depending on the gear, yes it is ok to be imbalanced if you have good gear, although the only case I'd consider it completely reasonable is with relic weapons. And a lot of what you cut out from my previous post is important to this conversation. Once consistent proof has been posted of how two-handed weapons for SAM, DRK, and DRG are routinely out-damaging dual wielding jobs of equivalent gear, then I'll say two-handed weapons need a nerf. However, if it's just one job out-doing the rest, then I'd say to nerf that job, and not two-handed weapons.

[Plow]

Main reason you haven't seen a parse is because the parsers most people are using have been broken, not that people are lying. I merited with a SAM/WAR and DRK/SAM on Trolls yesterday, I beat that same drk/sam 33%-36% just before the patch, so we both have same gear and just the patch changed things. Between the SAM and the DRK I almost never even took hate. I only had shadows taken from me if I was the first person to attack the mob or for a couple swings after I used my WS. In a merit party I TRY to take hate, I want to tank, and since I was only one with shadows I had more reason to be trying to take hate. But I couldn't do that, they both did too much more damage than me. Now neither are AH-only, they have decent gear (SAM has fairly expensive gear, DRK has some harder to get pieces) but neither has a relic and I do so we 'should' be fairly close, going by enmity levels, we weren't at all.

THINK PEOPLE THINK


GAAAAAAWD THINK FOR 2 FREAKING SECONDS


"ZOMG I was using a defensive subjob, I was the *ONLY* person using said defensive subjob, one that makes it so I can go basically untouched if I'm good and have haste, WHY AM I NOT OUTDAMAGING EVERYONE?!?!?!"


FFS, "zomg you have drain or healing breath you shouldn't get to outdmg me with my useless utsusemi!"


This is retarded, people don't give a shit about balance they're pissed off cuz they don't feel superior anymore.

[alphacat]

Cutting out alot of stuff so it doesn't form a huge quote train....

Well, Xavier's gear in general is pretty pimped.

So it's ok for it to be imbalanced if they have good gear?

That's pretty much the point of having good gears, Sherlock.

[Lhexh]

That's pretty much the point of having good gears, Sherlock.

So, in your mind it's perfectly acceptable that a SAM with elite gear/merits is able to beat a Ridill WAR with elite gear/merits by almost 50%? I can't believe people are still arguing about this. This update made shitty 2-Handers almost decent, made above-average 2-Handers come close to elite 1-Handers but still parse behind, and made elite 2-Handers 100% broken by destroying the best of the 1-Handers by over 40%.