Will They Fix It?

[FinalJustice]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this.

I still can't believe people are pulling figures out of the heavens.

[Plow]

That's pretty much the point of having good gears, Sherlock.

So, in your mind it's perfectly acceptable that a SAM with elite gear/merits is able to beat a Ridill WAR with elite gear/merits by almost 50%? I can't believe people are still arguing about this. This update made shitty 2-Handers almost decent, made above-average 2-Handers come close to elite 1-Handers but still parse behind, and made elite 2-Handers 100% broken by destroying the best of the 1-Handers by over 40%.

A. Bullshit. Prove it or stop saying it.


B. UTSU FUCKING SEMI. What is so difficult about the concept that *WHEN YOU GIVE UP THE GAME'S BEST DEFENSE YOU GET PRETTY FUCKING GOOD OFFENSE IN RETURN.*


I'm going to stop posting in caps now lol.


But seriously people, you wanna prove that the shit's broken get me a parse of a relic drk/sam or drk/war beating a relic mnk with war sub by an unreasonable amount. Until someone does something of the sort this is nothing but baseless bullshit of "omg ruke's sam is so leet nerf all 2h!"

[Krandor]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this.

I still can't believe people are pulling figures out of the heavens.

What figures out of heaven?

Didn't Rukenshin post parser results showing his damage output *over* Lhexh went up by over 35-40%?

[Plow]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this.

I still can't believe people are pulling figures out of the heavens.

What figures out of heaven?

Didn't Rukenshin post parser results showing his damage output *over* Lhexh went up by over 35-40%?

Everyone's using different measurements, I'm pretty sure ruke's comparison was that he won by 40% more than he did before, although I could be wrong.

Meanwhile you've got aurik talking about beating people by *only* 10% when in reality he was talking about doing well over 130% of the dmg they were doing.

[Sekkite]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this.

I still can't believe people are pulling figures out of the heavens.

What figures out of heaven?

Didn't Rukenshin post parser results showing his damage output *over* Lhexh went up by over 35-40%?

Rukenshin is overpowered.

[Lhexh]

How stupid are you Plow? This isn't fucking rocket science. Plug some basic numbers into the formulas for the current 2-Handed weapon equations. With the right buffs every single 2-Hander can now hit almost 50% harder and do 50% more damage per WeaponSkill just because of the increase from 2.0 pdif cap to 3.0 [ Yes I know this is an oversimplification because of the lack of pdif variation mentioned and no mention of effect on crits but hey some people don't seem to be able to grasp it so keeping it simple ]. That is a HUGE freaking increase in damage potential, and just because you can't reach it doesn't make it any less broken because the best geared people are reaching it very easily. I don't know about your server but on mine the good DRK, SAM, DRGs werent parsing 50% behind our MNK/WAR,NINs.

Edit: It get's really annoying when people just blow off Ruk's data saying he's broken. Are people that idiotic to not realize there really isn't anything that special about him? He doesn't even have the best gear in the LS, and pre-relic SAM was beaten in parses by myself quite often. It seems like people want to disregard his results because they can't match it when the reality is a LOT of people who aren't gimp across all the servers parse just as well or better than he does.

[Sekkite]

How stupid are you Plow? This isn't fucking rocket science. Plug some basic numbers into the formulas for the current 2-Handed weapon equations. With the right buffs every single 2-Hander can now hit almost 50% harder and do 50% more damage per WeaponSkill just because of the increase from 2.0 pdif cap to 3.0 [ Yes I know this is an oversimplification because of the lack of pdif variation mentioned and no mention of effect on crits but hey some people don't seem to be able to grasp it so keeping it simple ]. That is a HUGE freaking increase in damage potential, and just because you can't reach it doesn't make it any less broken because the best geared people are reaching it very easily. I don't know about your server but on mine the good DRK, SAM, DRGs werent parsing 50% behind our MNK/WAR,NINs.

And where are these mythical parses? I'm still waiting on them.

[Lhexh]

And where are these mythical parses? I'm still waiting on them.

Go back a few pages, the parse is right there showing me vs ruk before update and after update at same camp, same buffs, same food and he went from beating me by 10% to 46.5%. But of course people want to disregard that because it's Ruk which is moronic.

[Amele]

I can't believe people are still arguing about this.

I still can't believe people are pulling figures out of the heavens.

What figures out of heaven?

Didn't Rukenshin post parser results showing his damage output *over* Lhexh went up by over 35-40%?

Everyone's using different measurements, I'm pretty sure ruke's comparison was that he won by 40% more than he did before, although I could be wrong.

the 40%~ being thrown around was from a thought experiment where ruke compared his relative gain between two highly similar parses (he beats lexh in both parses) - not an increase of 40% of the absolute share of damage (in ruke's case a 40% absolute increase would put him at 80-90%~ of the total damage which is just retarded and not what he had at all.)

I haven't been able to find a link to the exact post, but I'll edit it in later if I do.

[Sekkite]

And where are these mythical parses? I'm still waiting on them.

Go back a few pages, the parse is right there showing me vs ruk before update and after update at same camp, same buffs, same food and he went from beating me by 10% to 46.5%. But of course people want to disregard that because it's Ruk which is moronic.

Rukenshin has a relic weapon. Of course it's moronic to compare him to the average well-geared DRK/SAM/DRG. He should be out-doing dual wield one-handed weapons by large amounts because he has a relic!

[Lhexh]

And where are these mythical parses? I'm still waiting on them.

Go back a few pages, the parse is right there showing me vs ruk before update and after update at same camp, same buffs, same food and he went from beating me by 10% to 46.5%. But of course people want to disregard that because it's Ruk which is moronic.

Rukenshin has a relic weapon. Of course it's moronic to compare him to the average well-geared DRK/SAM/DRG.

News flash, he had the relic weapon in the parse before the update also. God, my brain hurts at some of the excuses people are coming up with to disregard the data.

Relic Sam before update: 185/hit damage, 1100 WS Average
Relic Sam after update: 265/hit damage, 1500 WS Average

The relic didn't cause that increase in damage, the damage formula changes were 100% responsible.

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

And where are these mythical parses? I'm still waiting on them.

Go back a few pages, the parse is right there showing me vs ruk before update and after update at same camp, same buffs, same food and he went from beating me by 10% to 46.5%. But of course people want to disregard that because it's Ruk which is moronic.

Rukenshin has a relic weapon. Of course it's moronic to compare him to the average well-geared DRK/SAM/DRG.

News flash, he had the relic weapon in the parse before the update also. God, my brain hurts at some of the excuses people are coming up with to disregard the data.

Relic Sam before update: 185/hit damage, 1100 WS Average
Relic Sam after update: 265/hit damage, 1500 WS Average

The relic didn't cause that increase in damage, the damage formula changes were 100% responsible.

The point is the changes will affect people differently. Something that effects ruke one way won't necessarily affect the majority of SAMs the same way.

[Sekkite]

And where are these mythical parses? I'm still waiting on them.

Go back a few pages, the parse is right there showing me vs ruk before update and after update at same camp, same buffs, same food and he went from beating me by 10% to 46.5%. But of course people want to disregard that because it's Ruk which is moronic.

Rukenshin has a relic weapon. Of course it's moronic to compare him to the average well-geared DRK/SAM/DRG.

News flash, he had the relic weapon in the parse before the update also. God, my brain hurts at some of the excuses people are coming up with to disregard the data.

Relic Sam before update: 185/hit damage, 1100 WS Average
Relic Sam after update: 265/hit damage, 1500 WS Average

The relic didn't cause that increase in damage, the damage formula changes were 100% responsible.

You make my head hurt. It's like you believe that the game should be balanced around Rukenshin. Simply put, he should of been putting up even higher numbers pre-update due to his relic, but now he is putting up even higher numbers than before due to the two-handed weapon update. However, this is still reasonable to me because he has a fucking relic weapon!

Why not get parses of people with gear that is not owned by less then 1% of the end-game playerbase.

[Lhexh]

The point is the changes will affect people differently. Something that effects ruke one way won't necessarily affect the majority of SAMs the same way.

Hence, why the original statement I said indicated the "elite" 2-Handers were broken now where as the others had increased performance. Anyone that was at capped pdif before the update ( which is relic independant ), and a LOT of the best people play above 800 attack, now has the ability to increase their damage output by almost 50% ( again irrelevant of relic ) thanks to this update by stacking attack buffs.

[BRP]

I like the whole plugging fingers into ears and yelling "LALALALAL ITS RUKE LALALALALA".

You'd have to be blind to not notice the 40%+ ruke effect isn't effecting everyone else who gears up for the change. Are you really trying to deny it?

Can you explain to me whatever mechanics... actual facts outside "He has Relic GKT"... that make Ruke's 40% Damage increase invalid?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

The point is the changes will affect people differently. Something that effects ruke one way won't necessarily affect the majority of SAMs the same way.

Hence, why the original statement I said indicated the "elite" 2-Handers were broken now where as the others had increased performance. Anyone that was at capped pdif before the update ( which is relic independant ), and a LOT of the best people play above 800 attack, now has the ability to increase their damage output by almost 50% ( again irrelevant of relic ) thanks to this update by stacking attack buffs.

With those caveats, yes, that is true. It should be fixed, but until they at least try to fix it I wish we would shut up.

[Sekkite]

The point is the changes will affect people differently. Something that effects ruke one way won't necessarily affect the majority of SAMs the same way.

Hence, why the original statement I said indicated the "elite" 2-Handers were broken now where as the others had increased performance. Anyone that was at capped pdif before the update ( which is relic independant ), and a LOT of the best people play above 800 attack, now has the ability to increase their damage output by almost 50% ( again irrelevant of relic ) thanks to this update by stacking attack buffs.

The best people are a minority of the end-game playerbase, which in itself is a minority of the FFXI playerbase. And even then it's a lot more balanced then it was before.

I like the whole plugging fingers into ears and yelling "LALALALAL ITS RUKE LALALALALA".

You'd have to be blind to not notice the 40%+ ruke effect isn't effecting everyone else who gears up for the change. Are you really trying to deny it?

Can you explain to me whatever mechanics... actual facts outside "He has Relic GKT"... that make Ruke's 40% Damage increase invalid?

The fact that the 40% for Ruke brings him significantly higher and is a higher damage boost for him then it is for almost any other two-handed weapon user? Most other two-handed weapon users were being out-damaged by a much higher margin then 40% compared to the average well geared WAR/NIN or MNK.

[Eaglestrike]

Main reason you haven't seen a parse is because the parsers most people are using have been broken, not that people are lying. I merited with a SAM/WAR and DRK/SAM on Trolls yesterday, I beat that same drk/sam 33%-36% just before the patch, so we both have same gear and just the patch changed things. Between the SAM and the DRK I almost never even took hate. I only had shadows taken from me if I was the first person to attack the mob or for a couple swings after I used my WS. In a merit party I TRY to take hate, I want to tank, and since I was only one with shadows I had more reason to be trying to take hate. But I couldn't do that, they both did too much more damage than me. Now neither are AH-only, they have decent gear (SAM has fairly expensive gear, DRK has some harder to get pieces) but neither has a relic and I do so we 'should' be fairly close, going by enmity levels, we weren't at all.

THINK PEOPLE THINK


GAAAAAAWD THINK FOR 2 FREAKING SECONDS


"ZOMG I was using a defensive subjob, I was the *ONLY* person using said defensive subjob, one that makes it so I can go basically untouched if I'm good and have haste, WHY AM I NOT OUTDAMAGING EVERYONE?!?!?!"


FFS, "zomg you have drain or healing breath you shouldn't get to outdmg me with my useless utsusemi!"


This is retarded, people don't give a shit about balance they're pissed off cuz they don't feel superior anymore.

For merits thf/nin is generally better than thf/war, it's not simply a defensive subjob for me. If not for this being the case, I'd agree with you, though. Pre-update I tanked the majority of mobs, I would take hate in melee off the provoking Kikoku ninja I merit with occasionally, I have enmity+7 for every bit of damage I do. In my last party I had no chance at hate at all though.

I only used enmity as my measuring tool, I'd rather have used an actual parse. I don't care if I'm beaten in a parse, but I'd at least like to be in contention, I didn't feel like I was at all, I'll be sure to use the new dvsparse and retry sometime to get a more accurate representation.

[Beckwin]

We don't really have pre-patch numbers from non-relic SAMs, but in comparison of post-patch relic v. non relic, look at the parses Rykoshet has been posting. Around 1350ish WS average and definitely lower melee avg (around the 180 range iirc), due to lower D weapon and no triple dmg procs. Otherwise the gear is pinnacle (the same, pretty much). And yeah, Ryko's sam is outparsing just about any Ridill war I can think of, but it probably wasn't pre-patch.

There's kinda no debate about SAM specifically being a little overpowered. When I get home after the weekend I think I can pull some parses of an averagely geared SAM/WAR pre-update and compare against Ryko's newer parses (the same guy was in one of them). I'm pretty sure the guy's WS average almost doubled.

Other jobs are a bit more questionable. I was outparsing mediocre ridills here and there on colibri pre-update as drk/sam, but couldn't really do it on mamools (unless I had a fulltime mad but even then it was very iffy). Definitely have a better shot at doing it now vs. good ridills and monks; ninjas generally haven't been serious competition for awhile now. So I guess the question is should a merited, well-to-pinnacle geared <drk/sam/drg> be able to compete with well-to-pinnacle geared <war/mnk> in merits in strictly terms of damage?

I really don't see why not. The pDIF retool should tone down SAM WS mostly and the others minorly, and after that things seem like they should be pretty reasonable, in my eyes. Assasin, the dagger buff, and piercing-friendly camps let THFs do it and no one really complained that much, and thfs have an ever worse case than say, DRKs, for being exceptional at cranking out damage (from the Aurik POV on job balance).

[Veli]

I dont see the problem with this update. People act like Ridill/war BB/MNK are supposed t be the greatest DD forever. If a SAM without relic can out DD a top notch WAR with relic then it's a problem. It seems like all jobs are even now so it's cool.