Will They Fix It?

[Nameless]

Logically, I'd be more afraid of an assassin than a knight

"Hey, I'm a knight, I'm gonna fight you head on so there's no disadvantage to you and it's my skill that beats you"

or

"Hey, I'm an assassin, you're already dead because I killed you in the most efficient way possible"

You are a thf, not a nin. Don't let your AF2 name fool you. Also, you do get the assasin attribute as being able to sneak behind a mob and do burst damage. It is just that your DoT is just too bad that even the best burst damage won't help you get in a fight.

A THF is an assassin who has a main goal of money in mind. A NIN is a trained assassin that can be used in a military or mafia. The way I see it the jobs are mostly THF = Western assassin, NIN = Eastern Assassin.

Unless SE is going to completely rewrite mob information and make it so we're more like FFT thieves and can remove gear from enemies (and thus making them weaker) I doubt we're ever going to be very high in utility, so our focus is going to be DD.

Semi-edit: THF is still considered the best at shifting hate? By who? After this patch I in no way believe myself to be the best at shifting hate. A SAM will be able to have 100% tp for every TA even on HNM's, I may not be able to guarentee that. I'll have 100% accuracy, SAM will have 90%, but he'll also do 1.5x my damage, thus shifting 1.5x as much hate. THF is NOT the best at shifting hate, and just if you didn't realize this, but SHIFTING HATE DEPENDS ON DAMAGE DONE. If we can't do awesome damage, we can't shift hate well.

Most Sam are subbing War now a day on HNM so no one is able to shaft hate without sacrificing their damage. If you noticed that /SA isn't like before, still need research but it seems like it is a fixed damage it adds instead of a fixed increase in pDIF of 1.0 like before. Without /war, Sam/thf isn't going to do 2k+ WS on HNM, thus, balancing itself out.

On the other hands, yes, THF should still be classified as DD, but since you guys got so many other tools, including the tool to make money and steal, your DD potential should be less than pure DDs like SAM. I do think there should be a fairly large gap between pure DD and semi DD classes. You can do other stuff like soloing harder stuff than a drk can ever do, farm stuff more effeciently than a drk can ever do, fight NM and make them drop better. While as a Drk, damage is all you do, you get no solo life, no treasure farming, no gil making.

Also, you guys are able to critical for more than alot of jobs with SATA. That is the element of assasin. I don't think SE can do an any better job to thf's than it has been in term of fitting its description and purpose. If you take time on getting a x's knife, you will see yourself do alot more damage in HNM.

[spooky]

snip

I'd prefer to counter with the argument that mobs/enemies in an RPG have some form of armor, whether it's like a Troll with actual armor similar to a human or just tough skin. The point of a dagger is to strike at a weak point, with the heightened quickness of a dagger wielder and the ease of mobility of the dagger it's a lot easier to strike at weak points in armor than with other weapons.
Another comparison would be that big weapons make you bruise (since with strong armor a weapon hitting you is more of an impact and will throw you back and bruise) and daggers make you bleed. In terms of you approaching death, usually bleeding will get you there more efficiently (or in a more certain manner).

Unless that "burse" makes your internal organs and major arteries hemorrhage and you die from internal bleeding!
Ok, things are getting really off topic now. Back to why BLM has it worse than any of you and they aren’t crying (much).

[Vyloan]

Tad overpowered but I like it.

75 RDM, 75 SMN, 75 DRK, 75 DRG, 75 NIN and an up and coming ridill WAR.

I'M PREPARED FOR ANYTHING! Foo shoulda been too >8/

[Eaglestrike]

Most Sam are subbing War now a day on HNM so no one is able to shaft hate without sacrificing their damage. If you noticed that /SA isn't like before, still need research but it seems like it is a fixed damage it adds instead of a fixed increase in pDIF of 1.0 like before. Without /war, Sam/thf isn't going to do 2k+ WS on HNM, thus, balancing itself out.

On the other hands, yes, THF should still be classified as DD, but since you guys got so many other tools, including the tool to make money and steal, your DD potential should be less than pure DDs like SAM. I do think there should be a fairly large gap between pure DD and semi DD classes. You can do other stuff like soloing harder stuff than a drk can ever do, farm stuff more effeciently than a drk can ever do, fight NM and make them drop better. While as a Drk, damage is all you do, you get no solo life, no treasure farming, no gil making.

Also, you guys are able to critical for more than alot of jobs with SATA. That is the element of assasin. I don't think SE can do an any better job to thf's than it has been in term of fitting its description and purpose. If you take time on getting a x's knife, you will see yourself do alot more damage in HNM.

But a SAM could just as easily /THF and end up being able to shift hate better than a THF and do more damage than the THF. Thus making the utility of a THF's hate shifting ability crap.

The tool to make money and steal? You mean Treasure Hunter which can be used for the final % of an HNM (this meaning we only accept an invite in any HNM situation and don't actually fight) or the ability to steal normally nothing, and every 5min we might be able to dispel (when there are 3 other jobs that can dispel with a recast at least 5 times shorter than us)? Or maybe the ability to mug 40gil every 15min from only beastmen? Oh yeah, I'm making tons of money! You think DRK's can't solo in the middle lands? Dread Spikes, now crazy DoT, two drains, etc. SAM can kill fast and avoid most damage with a combination of evasion, parry and third eye, DRG were already on par and situationally better than THF at soloing before the update.

Oh yeah, on HNM's my 150-250 damage SA's and TA's are great. I mean, the SAM in the Fafnir SS was only doing 100-160 damage per non-critical melee strike, my 1min timers to equal between 1 and 2 normal melee strikes of another job sure makes me feel good.

[SephYuyX]

snip

I'd prefer to counter with the argument that mobs/enemies in an RPG have some form of armor, whether it's like a Troll with actual armor similar to a human or just tough skin. The point of a dagger is to strike at a weak point, with the heightened quickness of a dagger wielder and the ease of mobility of the dagger it's a lot easier to strike at weak points in armor than with other weapons.
Another comparison would be that big weapons make you bruise (since with strong armor a weapon hitting you is more of an impact and will throw you back and bruise) and daggers make you bleed. In terms of you approaching death, usually bleeding will get you there more efficiently (or in a more certain manner).

Unless that "burse" makes your internal organs and major arteries hemorrhage and you die from internal bleeding!
Ok, things are getting really off topic now. Back to why BLM has it worse than any of you and they aren’t crying (much).

Im BLM main, and have been for 5 years, I really dont see what there is to complain about.

Ok, so we dont get invited to XP PTs anymore, for the most part we still are desired in everything but. BLM is pretty over powered, in solo situations too, that 'nerf' SE gave us did nothing. If we were to ever get another spell tier (which is very likely in the expansion or after) we'll be even more bad ass.

[Nameless]

But the thing is that you are trying to make THF equal to SAM in damage, which it shouldn't be, or at the end it should have a difference. Perhaps like an average should do 60% of what an average Sam do in the end, something like that was probably in SE's mind when they made THF.

As of Drk soloing and farming. We don't get TH2 and our drop sucks. I am like 0/7, 0/8, 0/7 on VE, LL, and moldy earring. Drk can now solo decent amount of mobs with 2 drains and dread spike. But it still is very very hard against tougher mobs since they attack faster and interrupt your casting. Dread spike costs alot of MP and takes forever to cast. So unless you cast it at start of the fight, beat it down in a short period of time with 100% TP to start the fight, you are not going to last long after it wears. A thf with bard can kill joytoy NM, a drk with a bard will never be able to in a million year. Some jobs excel in certain things while others don't, matter of looking at it in a different way.

I mean, did you lvl thf to be the best DD in HNM situation? or just for the love of the job. I mean ppl do lvl bst knowing they have no place in HNM, but it is just fun to play the job you like.

[Alathar]

On the other hands, yes, THF should still be classified as DD, but since you guys got so many other tools, including the tool to make money and steal, your DD potential should be less than pure DDs like SAM. I do think there should be a fairly large gap between pure DD and semi DD classes. You can do other stuff like soloing harder stuff than a drk can ever do, farm stuff more effeciently than a drk can ever do, fight NM and make them drop better. While as a Drk, damage is all you do, you get no solo life, no treasure farming, no gil making.

This argument is just as flawed as the RNG "I pay for my damage" argument. What can RNG do better than others? We can solo even more poorly than drk (unless you want to spam sleep bolts), our DoT is low, our survivability is VERY low if we want to try to increase DoT (/war), and now even our WSes aren't amazing.

Someone posted Slugs on DL earlier, seriously, how does that even compare? Culverin +1 and Cannon shells mean you're using a 141 DMG weapon (If you have Heavy Shell, 150 DMG) not to mention the delay and stackability of the ammo make it prohibitive to use regularly. There are very few fights that use that setup and you're usually loaded up with buffs (Berserk, Meat, SV minuets, maybe COR rolls). We can't do 2500 dmg whenever we want.

[Siniroth]

But the thing is that you are trying to make THF equal to SAM in damage, which it shouldn't be, or at the end it should have a difference. Perhaps like an average should do 60% of what an average Sam do in the end, something like that was probably in SE's mind when they made THF.

As of Drk soloing and farming. We don't get TH2 and our drop sucks. I am like 0/7, 0/8, 0/7 on VE, LL, and moldy earring. Drk can now solo decent amount of mobs with 2 drains and dread spike. But it still is very very hard against tougher mobs since they attack faster and interrupt your casting. Dread spike costs alot of MP and takes forever to cast. So unless you cast it at start of the fight, beat it down in a short period of time with 100% TP to start the fight, you are not going to last long after it wears. A thf with bard can kill joytoy NM, a drk with a bard will never be able to in a million year. Some jobs excel in certain things while others don't, matter of looking at it in a different way.

True enough, though to be honest, TH doesn't make all that much of a difference, I went 1/1 on LL way back in my first few months of playing, and my thf friend (hey naru ) went like, 0/8, or something, after she had TH2

and yes, I know pretty well the duoing abilities of thf >_>

[Eaglestrike]

But the thing is that you are trying to make THF equal to SAM in damage, which it shouldn't be, or at the end it should have a difference. Perhaps like an average should do 60% of what an average Sam do in the end, something like that was probably in SE's mind when they made THF.

As of Drk soloing and farming. We don't get TH2 and our drop sucks. I am like 0/7, 0/8, 0/7 on VE, LL, and moldy earring. Drk can now solo decent amount of mobs with 2 drains and dread spike. But it still is very very hard against tougher mobs since they attack faster and interrupt your casting. Dread spike costs alot of MP and takes forever to cast. So unless you cast it at start of the fight, beat it down in a short period of time with 100% TP to start the fight, you are not going to last long after it wears. A thf with bard can kill joytoy NM, a drk with a bard will never be able to in a million year. Some jobs excel in certain things while others don't, matter of looking at it in a different way.

I mean, did you lvl thf to be the best DD in HNM situation? or just for the love of the job. I mean ppl do lvl bst knowing they have no place in HNM, but it is just fun to play the job you like.

When the hell did I say I wanted them equal, I want them close. SAM was already far greater in damage than me on HNM, as well as more efficient because they got TP on their own.

You seem to overestimate TH2. It's not shitty, but it's not some gamebreaking thing like I get 3 non-crystal drops per mob. So with support I can kill some NM's other jobs can't? Man, that just makes this game lovely. I can go kill Charybdis twice a day and skip Salvage and HNM's!

Just so you know, with my awesome TH2, I've never gotten a drop from LL or VE.

Edit: I leveled THF because I like the quick and evasive DD. There's no point to my job, however, if it is functionally useless in the majority of things I enjoy in this game.

[Coldone]

But the thing is that you are trying to make THF equal to SAM in damage, which it shouldn't be, or at the end it should have a difference. Perhaps like an average should do 60% of what an average Sam do in the end, something like that was probably in SE's mind when they made THF.

As of Drk soloing and farming. We don't get TH2 and our drop sucks. I am like 0/7, 0/8, 0/7 on VE, LL, and moldy earring. Drk can now solo decent amount of mobs with 2 drains and dread spike. But it still is very very hard against tougher mobs since they attack faster and interrupt your casting. Dread spike costs alot of MP and takes forever to cast. So unless you cast it at start of the fight, beat it down in a short period of time with 100% TP to start the fight, you are not going to last long after it wears. A thf with bard can kill joytoy NM, a drk with a bard will never be able to in a million year. Some jobs excel in certain things while others don't, matter of looking at it in a different way.

I mean, did you lvl thf to be the best DD in HNM situation? or just for the love of the job. I mean ppl do lvl bst knowing they have no place in HNM, but it is just fun to play the job you like.

I'm 0/6 on O kote, 0/8 on LL and 0/4 on VE all with TH4.. Treasure Hunter is luck, not anything you can count on.

edit: the reason thfs still get to be invited at 5%... superstition.

[Nameless]

On the other hands, yes, THF should still be classified as DD, but since you guys got so many other tools, including the tool to make money and steal, your DD potential should be less than pure DDs like SAM. I do think there should be a fairly large gap between pure DD and semi DD classes. You can do other stuff like soloing harder stuff than a drk can ever do, farm stuff more effeciently than a drk can ever do, fight NM and make them drop better. While as a Drk, damage is all you do, you get no solo life, no treasure farming, no gil making.

This argument is just as flawed as the RNG "I pay for my damage" argument. What can RNG do better than others? We can solo even more poorly than drk (unless you want to spam sleep bolts), our DoT is low, our survivability is VERY low if we want to try to increase DoT (/war), and now even our WSes aren't amazing.

Someone posted Slugs on DL earlier, seriously, how does that even compare? Culverin +1 and Cannon shells mean you're using a 141 DMG weapon (If you have Heavy Shell, 150 DMG) not to mention the delay and stackability of the ammo make it prohibitive to use regularly. There are very few fights that use that setup and you're usually loaded up with buffs (Berserk, Meat, SV minuets, maybe COR rolls). We can't do 2500 dmg whenever we want.

Well, I don't play rng but I know for sure they excel in alot of areas. First of all on kite mobs, you guys do constant damage from range while all melees chase down the mob to maybe get a couple hit off every minute. That's a plus and pretty much the nature of your job, do damage without engaging. There is a reason Rng is so good in Airship fight.

Second of all, you guys excel in short period spike damage in timed BCNM fights with pretty much no restriction or protections needed from other jobs. What I mean is that while Drk can 300% tp WS for big spike, not all bcnm allows you to get 300% tp before fight, not to mention how unpractical it is to get 300% during the fight, you miss out on DoT. While Drk can souleater and spike with guillotine, we need healer afterwards, a MP > Damage exchange pretty much. While Drk can kclub or 100 GA a mob, we need CS stun, cover, bard 2hr march, thf feint (btw, thf there is a bone for you, I don't know how many time we have thf in alliance just for feint, best shit ever and no other jobs can do that), and can't do it in alot of mobs or situation, undead being one of them. Rngs can WS, barrage, WS, EES to do burst damage that requires nothing in a short period of time, operating all by your own, which is why it is also popular in lvl cap stuff.

I really don't know what else you guys want to be honest. You are special in a particular way.

[Not Kuno]

Well, I don't play rng but I know for sure they excel in alot of areas. First of all on kite mobs, you guys do constant damage from range while all melees chase down the mob to maybe get a couple hit off every minute.

What gets kited these days? Not a whole lot these days anymore.

There is a reason Rng is so good in Airship fight.

It's nice to know a jobs existence is justified by a bc.

Second of all, you guys excel in short period spike damage in timed BCNM fights with pretty much no restriction or protections needed from other jobs. What I mean is that while Drk can 300% tp WS for big spike, not all bcnm allows you to get 300% tp before fight, not to mention how unpractical it is to get 300% during the fight, you miss out on DoT. While Drk can souleater and spike with guillotine, we need healer afterwards, a MP > Damage exchange pretty much. While Drk can kclub or 100 GA a mob, we need CS stun, cover, bard 2hr march, thf feint (btw, thf there is a bone for you, I don't know how many time we have thf in alliance just for feint, best shit ever and no other jobs can do that), and can't do it in alot of mobs or situation, undead being one of them. Rngs can WS, barrage, WS, EES to do burst damage that requires nothing in a short period of time, operating all by your own, which is why it is also popular in lvl cap stuff.

SAM can get 300 TP and do spike damage too. Drk gets KC. Whenever we melee burn stuff we dont use RNG because it's still not as good as other jobs.

[Rocl]

Times like these made me glad I never leveled a melee job

[thestalkmore]

Where's the "they should change it but won't option?"

[Amele]

I like how everyone has totaly forgotten about BLM. >_> Who now are forced to manaburn or solo only. /blub

you can do 5k solo an hour easy though.

Oh right, so I can solo my merits 5 times slower than melee in an exp PT? Fun.

Was being sarcastic, but I got 40k an hour in a SAM burn last night.

I really wish BLM was fixed a little, SE went overboard on eliminating them from Aht Urghan.

I'm a little late, surprised no one else commented:

there's no camps currently that I would expect it's possible to get 40k/hr from, no matter what job setup you had. (colibri's maxes out at ~25k/hr regardless of kill speed.) you'd need 14-18 level 81-83 mobs in au on a 5 minute recast, or 50-60 level 81-83 mobs on an indoor recast within seconds running distance of each other, and you would need an average kill to kill time of 19 seconds.

(this is ignoring doing stuff like back to back to back anny ring charges or taking double cor and using corsair's rolls etc. - with constant XI's on cor roll, you'd need 12-15 mobs and an average kill time of 22 seconds. with an average roll, 13-16 and an average kill time of 21 seconds.)

[theo]

Where's the "they should change it but won't option?"

Or how about the "They'll change it 2 years from now when Alla bitches about it, only to end up breaking the game in a new and fresh way!"

[FinalJustice]

Im not sure what the big deal is. 2handed weapon users were at a disadvantage before. Not not so much, and ppl are upset?
I kind also think they needed this to keep up with top tier mnks Nin and wars.

Though I have a question. Sams i knew were alrdy breaking 1.2k WS' on Fafnir and Kirin before all this. So now that it's increased to 1.5-1.7k, is that THAT big of a difference though?

[Siniroth]

Where's the "they should change it but won't option?"

Or how about the "They'll change it 2 years from now when Alla bitches about it, only to end up breaking the game in a new and fresh way!"

I think there's only a certain amount of room in polls

[Loren]

If I'm using a D35 dagger alongside a dragoon using some low-level D35 polearm...
My Sneak Attack ability is more or less nullified since the maximum pDIF I can pray for is something he achieves on regular hits. Now if he uses an endgame polearm, my DEX bonus is mostly nullified as well, again compared to his regular swings.

If a 2-handed melee/THF is doing hate control on NMs...
My Assassin trait is nullified since the 2-hander can deliver at 3.0 pDIF (using a better WS).

For merit parties and merit-like instances...
2-handers basically show up with a free, extra Minuet + Madrigal due to the attribute formulae. No matter how I tweak my gear, SJ, and food, my output will be significantly below them. THF doesn't have solo exp options like BLM and BST.

Now for the idea of "maybe THF isn't a DD"...
What are they? Steal, Mug, Gilfinder, and Treasure Hunter are extremely weak abilities that usually have no bearing on a group (see: missions, instances, fixed drop NMs). Mug and Gilfinder's lol value is obvious. As for steal, take a survey of possible results. Vast majority of mobs have nothing. Majority of those who do yield items that auction or vendor under 100 gil (1200 gil per hour). Gold beastcoins are the best result--2-3 per hour for 3k a piece. But I can make more meriting and selling imperial gold.

Treasure Hunter has been called placebo by THF and non-THF alike with or without the +1 items. Even when TH is valued, it's 100% passive (no distinction between lazy and dedicated THF). Flee and Hide are handy but also irrelevant to groups (and Flee can be replicatede).
I'm fine with all of this because I considered them perks on a strong DD job. Think along the lines of Chakra, Shadowbind, etc. If those were a job's core functions they'd have to be a hell of a lot better.

Why does a job need a backstab ability or a triple swing ability if they're not a DD? If SE decided to completely overhaul THF with a suite of "tricky" abilities like disguises or trap setting in exchange for being a notch below the "professional" frontline DD, I'd be fine with that, but there's no indication of them doing so. At this point in time they're built exactly like DDs who happen to be restricted to inferior weapons.

[Coldone]

Im not sure what the big deal is. 2handed weapon users were at a disadvantage before. Not not so much, and ppl are upset?
I kind also think they needed this to keep up with top tier mnks Nin and wars.

Though I have a question. Sams i knew were alrdy breaking 1.2k WS' on Fafnir and Kirin before all this. So now that it's increased to 1.5-1.7k, is that THAT big of a difference though?

if it was just that.. then it wouldn't be.. but regular melee attacks have been buffed up a lot as well as their accuracy being high enough to use meat on just about anything, without worry about missing much.