Parses after the patch

[hexagram23]

Draining doesn't give you TP.

I cast more at other camps, but it usually has to do with buffing dread spikes/souleater and watching healer MP.

If you wanna play the hypothetical-numbers game, lets take your 12k and say 300 average per cast (which is probably overestimating in your favor). 40 casts. Assume it takes about the same time to swing as it does to cast a drain- so 40 swings- and work in a 10% double attack rate bringing it up to 44, at 95% acc- roughly 42 swings. 185/hit for 42 hits = 7770. 42 x 17 tp = 714 tp = 7 weaponskills. 7 times 1,260 = 8820. 8820 + 7770 = 16590 dmg. 16590 > 12000, not to mention the mp can probably better be used on Dread Spikes, which will deal roughly 700 damage each time and alleviate your healer a bit, allow you to keep an add busy if lullaby gets resisted, etc.

That math doesn't make any sense because it's assuming every single time you cast Drain/Drain2, you are interrupting what would be a swing. It's not as simple as that. Once again, if you can't time your casting in between swings, something is seriously wrong.

Not to mention, you aren't taking into consideration Absorb-TP. A DRK's TP gain isn't as simple as "get 100 TP from X amount of swings, use WS" because of that spell. You can go from 30-40 TP to 100 TP in 2 seconds if you time the spell right, my average Absorb-TP in the party we just did was around 40, highest I think was 58.

Also, 300 is extremely low for Drain 2. I average 350, I can post up some screen shots if you want, we did a party about 5 minutes ago, highest Drain2 was 375 on VT/IT Mamools. My Dark Magic skill is 315, maybe your's is lower, I dunno.

Regardless, my point was, we are looking at a parser of mobs that DRKs can't cast on. And even if you could cast, the parser doesn't record magic damage, so it's inaccurate. I'm not trying to take anything away from Ryko but the parser isn't accurate, at all. Go parse Trolls or Mamools or Aura Statues or, hell even Demons.

[hexagram23]

This was all the pics I took, in the last few minutes of the party. This isn't the highest or lowest, but an average to show you what I mean:

http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stuffza1.png

[RKenshin]

In general I also found that casting spells other than the occasional Absorb TP lowered overall DoT for DRK. I did some cruel tests with me vs well-equiped WARs not too long after I hit 75 DRK and the more time I spent casting spells the lower my average damage per fight went, likewise the less time I spent casting spells the higher my average damage per fight went.

I've always ran the Spiel/Taz parsers and they pick up the magic damage, and really even over the course of longer PTs it doesn't add up to a lot of damage whether you're spamming it or not. Spamming it you end up adding about an extra 5-7k damage for every 100k damage delt with WS/melee totals... And I agree with the idea that it probably ends up being lower DoT overall. I mean I felt this way before the patch and now with DRK hitting a good deal harder it's just no real contest.

I'd imagine now with this patch the differences would be even greater as DRK melee power received a huge boost while our magic capabilities remains unchanged.

I'm at something like 315 Dark Magic with +14 magic acc as well, so not like I'm just saying this because I can't land magic well.

[Beckwin]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...ionrat/317.jpg

You don't get to just "sneak in" spellcasts between melee rounds. Your melee delay counter doesn't keep going while you're casting.

The 300 figure is an average I came up with between drainI and drainII casts; drainI is more mp efficient and is on a lower recast timer.

You're making a poor case arguing a DRK is gonna do any significant catching up to a decked sam right now via Drains. Abs-tp would close the gap; drains would not.

[RKenshin]

Hey Beck, bet my enfeebling is worse than yours!

[Beckwin]

I dunno about that. I'll just say that my WHM sub is 37 and my enfeebling isn't far beyond that.

[RKenshin]

I get skill ups on the mobs around the trail markings before entering Dynamis-Valkurm.

[hexagram23]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...ionrat/317.jpg

You don't get to just "sneak in" spellcasts between melee rounds. Your melee delay counter doesn't keep going while you're casting.

The 300 figure is an average I came up with between drainI and drainII casts; drainI is more mp efficient and is on a lower recast timer.

You're making a poor case arguing a DRK is gonna do any significant catching up to a decked sam right now via Drains. Abs-tp would close the gap; drains would not.

We've yet to see any solid evidence that a DRK wouldn't out damage a decked out SAM, so I dunno what you are talking about. So far we've seen your parse, where a DRK couldn't cast any magic, which like I said means nothing. The only other parse between DRK and SAM was Khrno, and the DRK slaughtered the SAMs by a wide margin. Other than the one screen shot of 1 SAM using his 2 hour on Fafnir I don't see where the sudden "SAM is god" fascination comes from.

I don't see how casting 2 spells that do the same/more than your average hits is going to hurt your DoT, unless you mean the TP lost per hit, and even then you have Absorb-TP. It's not as if it's 2003 still and you can only WS when you hit 100 TP after landing X amount of hits....if you have 50 TP, Drain 2 for 350, then Absorb TP for 50, barring a rare DA proc on /SAM you more or less did the exact same damage in the same time frame. Possibly more depending on your Drain2 damage.

Eh, whatever. All I know is anytime I get parsed on DVS, I come in dead last because it doesn't count magic. And anytime I get parsed on FFXI Parse that records magic, I generally come in #1 unless it's a Ridill WAR or BB MNK. Although that might change now I guess.

[Ryko]

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...ionrat/317.jpg

You don't get to just "sneak in" spellcasts between melee rounds. Your melee delay counter doesn't keep going while you're casting.

The 300 figure is an average I came up with between drainI and drainII casts; drainI is more mp efficient and is on a lower recast timer.

You're making a poor case arguing a DRK is gonna do any significant catching up to a decked sam right now via Drains. Abs-tp would close the gap; drains would not.

We've yet to see any solid evidence that a DRK wouldn't out damage a decked out SAM, so I dunno what you are talking about. So far we've seen your parse, where a DRK couldn't cast any magic, which like I said means nothing. The only other parse between DRK and SAM was Khrno, and the DRK slaughtered the SAMs by a wide margin. Other than the one screen shot of 1 SAM using his 2 hour on Fafnir I don't see where the sudden "SAM is god" fascination comes from.

I don't see how casting 2 spells that do the same/more than your average hits is going to hurt your DoT, unless you mean the TP lost per hit, and even then you have Absorb-TP. It's not as if it's 2003 still and you can only WS when you hit 100 TP after landing X amount of hits....if you have 50 TP, Drain 2 for 350, then Absorb TP for 50, barring a rare DA proc on /SAM you more or less did the exact same damage in the same time frame. Possibly more depending on your Drain2 damage.

Eh, whatever. All I know is anytime I get parsed on DVS, I come in dead last because it doesn't count magic. And anytime I get parsed on FFXI Parse that records magic, I generally come in #1 unless it's a Ridill WAR or BB MNK. Although that might change now I guess.

You're delusional, aren't you? He did the math already, any moment you're casting you're not swinging, or you're not approaching the mob so that you can swing. Tell ya what, I'll find out when beckwin can exp again for a couple of hours, I'll grab the exact same monk, we'll go to trolls and I'll drop the DA roll for an acc roll, beckwin will sub SAM and go scythe full time. Gonna let you in on a secret, I'm still probably going to win by a minimum of 5%.

[hexagram23]

You're delusional, aren't you? He did the math already, any moment you're casting you're not swinging, or you're not approaching the mob so that you can swing. Tell ya what, I'll find out when beckwin can exp again for a couple of hours, I'll grab the exact same monk, we'll go to trolls and I'll drop the DA roll for an acc roll, beckwin will sub SAM and go scythe full time. Gonna let you in on a secret, I'm still probably going to win by a minimum of 5%.

The math didn't add up.

If you are casting, but aren't swinging, and the cast does more than your hit....how is that bad? It doesn't add up. If you normally hit for 250, and your Drain2 does 350....where is the downside? The TP lost? You aren't counting the number of hits to 100 TP, so how is that relevant? It's not as if you'd land an additional hit in the 2 seconds it takes to cast Absorb-TP.

As far as winning by 5%....gonna let you in on a secret, 5% is nothing. A couple 2k Guillotines will square 5% right away.

If the DRK won by 5% it wouldn't mean anything either. Let's be real here, you won by 10% or so because the parse was in your favor. If you parse on Trolls and he never casts anything other than Absorb-TP, you'll probably win there too. He's basically playing his DRK like a WAR that uses a scythe.

Plus your average WS is doing more than his....that's ridiculous. He's not playing his DRK right or you have far superior gear to him or something.

[Ploid]

Don't get tp from drain. There's a reason people like tp burns. That 100 or so extra dmg from drain probably won't outweigh the extra tp you get to add to 100 tp or your tp drain. I'm not a drk just observing this convo. Interesting.

[hexagram23]

Don't get tp from drain. There's a reason people like tp burns. That 100 or so extra dmg from drain probably won't outweigh the extra tp you get to add to 100 tp or your tp drain. I'm not a drk just observing this convo. Interesting.

Guillotine damage isn't affected by more TP so having "extra TP" for it is pointless. That's what these guys don't seem to get....if Drain2 does more than your normal hits, why wouldn't you use it? Because you lose out on TP from the casting....guess what, you have Absorb-TP to make up the difference. And you can't use the "miss out on swing" argument on that spell because it's casting time is 2 seconds. Not to mention, a nice little Drain2 coupled with Souleater allows you to do stuff like this:

http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=guillo1sw7.png

[underscore]

if you check my last parse on page 5.. it has a decked out drk beating a decked out sam.. notice how much spell dmg he did!
cor/rng war/sam sam/war drk/nin
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/2...esamdrknp5.jpg

sam didnt have gkt merits but drk was sj nin

[hexagram23]

if you check my last parse on page 5.. it has a decked out drk beating a decked out sam.. notice how much spell dmg he did!
cor/rng war/sam sam/war drk/nin
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/2...esamdrknp5.jpg

sam didnt have gkt merits but drk was sj nin

DRK using a NIN sub isn't remotely the same as a SAM not having GKT merits, especially since the update made any ACC issues non-existent. A DRK using NIN as his sub in EXP is pretty noobtastic.

/NIN is arguably the worst sub a DRK could use for EXP, it offers survivability at the expense of....well everything else. If it was DRK/WAR or /SAM or hell even /DRG I bet the DRK would fair much better. Plus his spell damage is what? 3-4 Drain2s? You guys are parsing DRKs that are pretending to be WARs.

[underscore]

my point is that with a GIMP SJ, he beat a DECKED out sam WITHOUT using spells

[hexagram23]

my point is that with a GIMP SJ, he beat a DECKED out sam WITHOUT using spells

Ah, i wasn't trying to discredit what you were saying man, at all. I'm just saying if he had a different sub/used more spells he would've parsed even better.

[Delekii]

you cant "fit spells" between melee rounds, spells delay melee rounds.

using hq elemental staff, rdm/blm naked except for staff and vermillion cloak.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/duncan.wilson/delay.jpg

5-6 seconds between every attack (all of these were 6, but there were occasional 5's as well - account for lag

http://members.optusnet.com.au/duncan.w ... laydia.jpg

Dia is, according to wiki, 1 second cast time, and I am on 75rdm (meaning fastcast).
I tried to cast dia as soon as melee attack went off (and you can see the first one actually started casting right before the melee attack round went off in the log). Timeline is:

38 Melee
38 Dia
+ 9 seconds
47 melee
47 dia
+8 seconds
55 Melee
+2 seconds
57 Dia
+6 seconds (total 8 since last melee round)
03 Melee
03 Dia
+8 seconds
11 Melee

Casting Dia delayed my attack round by _atleast_ 2 seconds using dia "in between" attacks.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/duncan.w ... aypara.jpg

Para is a 3 seconds spell sans-fast cast

30 Melee
31 Para
+10 seconds
41 melee
+4 seconds
45 Para
+6 seconds (total 10 since last melee round)
51 Melee
+6 seconds
57 Melee (back to 6 seconds with no spell cast)
+6 seconds
03 Melee
+6 seconds
09 Para (spell cast started straight after attack round)
09 Melee
+11 seconds
20 Melee

Spells do not fit in between attack rounds, they delay your next attack round by slightly more than the cast time of the spell.

No matter which way you slice it, casting drain or drain2 costs you TP. You can't "make up for it" with absorb TP, because darks that DON'T cast drain can also cast absorb TP. Whether or not it's worth it, I don't know, I'm not a DRK, or for that matter, have much experience with melee at all.

[Beckwin]

Guillotine damage isn't affected by more TP so having "extra TP" for it is pointless.

No shit Sherlock, but getting 100 TP faster is gonna mean more weaponskills which means more damage. If you don't already have mobs lined up, then you have a problem with your puller or you need to get your feet moving with the rest of the melee to another mob.

Abs-tp would help me catch up to a pinnacle-sans-relic/gktmerits SAM, spamming drain would not.

[hexagram23]

you cant "fit spells" between melee rounds, spells delay melee rounds.

Spells do not fit in between attack rounds, they delay your next attack round by slightly more than the cast time of the spell.

No matter which way you slice it, casting drain or drain2 costs you TP. You can't "make up for it" with absorb TP, because darks that DON'T cast drain can also cast absorb TP. Whether or not it's worth it, I don't know, I'm not a DRK, or for that matter, have much experience with melee at all.

It doesn't matter if you can't "sneak in" a spell between hits. Unless you get severely resisted Drain2 will do MORE than the hit you missed out on....the only argument against using the spells at this point is "but you lose TP by casting it!" which makes no sense because we have Absorb-TP.

Look at it like this:

1. One DRK casts Drain2 for 350 (about 100 more than his melee hits), and loses 14-17 TP from that. He has 60 TP, casts Absorb-TP for 45 TP, giving him 115 TP.

2. Another has 60 TP, and doesn't cast Drain2, instead in that time frame lands a hit for 250. He now has 77 TP. Next he casts Absorb-TP for 45 TP giving him 122 TP.

Both DRKs use their TP (which doesn't affect Guillotine damage) and do XXXX damage.

The guy that casted Drain2 did 100 more damage than the other, in the same time frame.

[Beckwin]

or the case two guy weaponskills then casts abs-tp, still having him further ahead.

or just casts abs-tp at 60 tp, weaponskills, then keeps meleeing, still having him further ahead.