Parses after the patch

[archibaldcrane]

Best case scenario I could pull within 5%, as in say 37 to 32, (/sam, not dicking around with greatsword) but yeah, SAM is a monster right now. MNK definitely woulda been helped by an accuracy buff, but still.

Also, I'm considering using the Blitz Ring I have sitting in MH for xp.... and the dusk gloves my ninja uses.

Either Blitz ring or Flame ring for TP, yeah - when you're sitting capped like that there's no sense in using sniper+1. I'd love to see the same parser contestants with a madrigal or hunters instead, and with you going all out /sam.

Also, is that bomblet or core?

[Beckwin]

That's a bomblet.

Doing a hunter's would be fine because after awhile, I suggested that the COR just use corsair's roll (sup 300LP/kill wivres).

I'm kinda running out of options for capped acc substitute gear though. I don't have Korazin, but I am looking forward to LBC dropping a phobos cuirass. Then it gets to stuff like going with Walahra over Ace's or trying for a really obscene store tp build (which again needs Korazin most likely).

[Remyo]

Also, is that bomblet or core?

bomb core got a reskin a few updates back.

[Kaylia]

That kind of math only works if you are meleeing the same mob for an extended period of time. What if you don't get in any extra swings due to haste on high delay weapon on a portion of the mobs you fight?

You still kill the monster faster. Instead of doing your 10 swings in 60sec, you would do them in 57sec. Even if you don't get the bonus swing, you still attacked faster in the end, which is just as good.

[DrObvious]

That kind of math only works if you are meleeing the same mob for an extended period of time. What if you don't get in any extra swings due to haste on high delay weapon on a portion of the mobs you fight?

You still kill the monster faster. Instead of doing your 10 swings in 60sec, you would do them in 57sec. Even if you don't get the bonus swing, you still attacked faster in the end, which is just as good.

He's saying if the monster dies in 61 seconds anyway(because the other people aren't attacking faster and they get the killing blow), whether you take 57 seconds to get all your swings in or 60 seconds is irrelevant. You didn't gain anything, it's not better.

Where as increased DA/TA should always benefit. I know haste has increasing returns, I said that in the post you are replying to, however I don't see how 2h can always stand to benefit as much as 1-handers, unless you have absurd amount of haste like relic drk.

Otoh, this never made sense to me. Why wouldn't 2h weapons see just as much of a benefit from haste, if not more? You're cutting off more delay than you are with 1h weapons which makes it more likely that you'll actually see the benefits and actually get in that extra strike.

[underscore]

more parses!
some of the "number of battles" numbers are skewed because i dual box a healer when i'm too lazy to switch between hasso and seigan
also, all of the wars arent merited for gaxe(i think what, the 15 people who do have bravura are the only ones that do)

This was me trying out raging rush(top) vs metatron torment(bottom). I know it's not a good sample size, but just from my non-parsed experience with testing metatron vs post patch raging rush , I prefer raging rush because i never fully miss with it.
It was the same party but the orders are different in each parse. Pre-patch a half way decent nin could usually get 15-20% easily but now they're not even worth the first voke =/. The war was /sam using perdu voulge with good tp/ws gear, and the drg was a lvl 73 who helped cure with an outside rdm(still managed to do almost as well as the war).
on gcolibri
top: nin war me drg wyvern
bottom: nin drg war me wyvern
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1...ndrgwarbj6.jpg

now on to some longer ones:

Notice my obscene damage taken stat, that happens when you halfass seigan switching while doing too much dmg. The mnk was using meat, but switched to sushi once he realized he was hitting for cap dmg alot(i think it was like 86-89 for most of the mobs). Towards the end o the party, me and the other war started playing around with Steel Cyclone. It does really consistent damage and double attacks adding almost 600-700 damage, with single hits doing roughly 900-1kdmg(700-800 on plds and rdms) and double attacks doing roughly 1600-1700dmg. I still prefer raging rush though because missing sucks.
trolls by cerberus
war/sam - mnk/war - war/sam - cor/whm
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/5...kwarcorya2.jpg

Everyone is pretty geared out in this next parse, though I don't believe the sam was merited gkt(has a relic on another job). Just proves how broken sam are in this patch!
trolls by cerberus
cor/rng - war/sam - sam/war - drk/nin
http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/2...esamdrknp5.jpg


I guess i'm happy because my relic actually does significantly more dmg than my ridill now, as opposed to being equal to it before the patch. I do hope that they keep the attribute bonuses the same when they fix 2h pdif, especially since they said thats what they were going to enhance anyway.

[Kaylia]

That kind of math only works if you are meleeing the same mob for an extended period of time. What if you don't get in any extra swings due to haste on high delay weapon on a portion of the mobs you fight?

You still kill the monster faster. Instead of doing your 10 swings in 60sec, you would do them in 57sec. Even if you don't get the bonus swing, you still attacked faster in the end, which is just as good.

He's saying if the monster dies in 61 seconds anyway(because the other people aren't attacking faster and they get the killing blow), whether you take 57 seconds to get all your swings in or 60 seconds is irrelevant. You didn't gain anything, it's not better.

>_> Your example would be correct if you would never get any killshot, but that's not the case. You should do 25% of the killshot with 4 melee (assuming they are perfectly balanced), and that killshot will come 3 seconds earlier than it would without haste gears. Even if you dont count the additional hit.

[DrObvious]

Percentage of damage can't tell us the distribution of kill shots, because the person doing the least damage may feasibly be holding their tp till the end and getting a disproportionate number. This mimics reality where a lot of people do not use their tp immediately.

I'm not arguing that haste gear isn't worth it, because that would be stupid. Of course all premier melees have a lot of haste. I'm arguing that missing that last piece of haste gear might not even make a difference at all. Full 25% haste is not taking off 3 seconds either, and most people don't have that anyway. By the way, I'm not trying to take the side that 5% haste isn't better than 2.5% triple attack for tp, that's a losing argument. Just that this issue has come up before with "zomg you don't have dusk feet you gimp" threads, and the recommendation of blitz ring, whose return seems very questionable unless you're drk zerging.

[Amele]

Percentage of damage can't tell us the distribution of kill shots, because the person doing the least damage may feasibly be holding their tp till the end and getting a disproportionate number. This mimics reality where a lot of people do not use their tp immediately.

I'm not arguing that haste gear isn't worth it, because that would be stupid. Of course all premier melees have a lot of haste. I'm arguing that missing that last piece of haste gear might not even make a difference at all. Full 25% haste is not taking off 3 seconds either, and most people don't have that anyway. By the way, I'm not trying to take the side that 5% haste isn't better than 2.5% triple attack for tp, that's a losing argument. Just that this issue has come up before with "zomg you don't have dusk feet you gimp" threads, and the recommendation of blitz ring, whose return seems very questionable unless you're drk zerging.

uh what? 3 seconds is 25% of 12 seconds, which last I checked is only ~2 swings unhasted for most 2handers.

are you seriously claiming that mobs die faster than 12 seconds?

(for the other example, assuming 5 seconds per swing, 300 delay) you would be hitting swing #20 at 57 seconds instead of 60 seconds with a whole 5% haste

this is where I think a lot of people misunderstand haste - the effect on swings over time is cumulative. and nothing dies in <4 or 5 rounds.

if I have 20% haste, I hit 5 rounds in the time it takes me to do 4 rounds. if the mob is going to die sometime after I would hit 4 rounds unhasted (~28-30 seconds for most 2handers - so we'll say 7 seconds a round) then I get an extra swing in and it *doesn't fucking matter* who got the kill shot.

if the mob is going to die before I would get 4 rounds in,(kill speed 27 seconds or less) I get a fourth round in as long as it takes more than ~22.5 seconds (which is just slower than it takes to get 3 rounds unhasted) so there's a liability of 1.5 seconds (21->22.5) where I get the same number of rounds and after that I got an extra round no matter who killed it.

with 25% haste that liability is -even- smaller so the only real debate you can make is whether is 20->25 is worth the other stats (hint: it is. 5% from 20->25 is worth way more than 0->5% and that was worth more than the other stats already)

remember, you have more haste than your gear. minimally you should have 15% from the spell and ideally you have either 11 or 20% from march. so you're not discussing 20 or 23%. you're potentially discussing 55% or 58% which is a *huge* difference.

[Imladra]

I'll add my stone to the monument

i did an merit party with sam/war, sam/war, war/nin, nin/war, brd and rdm.

I was sam with full meditate, store tp and overwhelm merits. I also have 1str, 4 critical and 3 GK merits, i rarely had to use seigan.
i was using for ws :
justice torque, hagun, wyvern helm, rajas, flame, brutal, bushi, amemet+1, hachiman feet, axe grip, osode, pallas, shura haidate and warwolf.
for tp :
haubergeon, dusk gloves, turban and byakko haidate (i was keeping warwolf and sniper was not in the macro... noticed after)

I'm unsure for the other players but, the other sam (neomy) had 2 overwhelm, not full store tp but some merits in meditate and better than average gear with soboro.
The war (chamille) was using man/jugg with full axe merit, at least 3 aggressor and 3 berserk haub, haidate, torque and some haste gear (turban, swift belt, dusk gloves)
The nin (battou) was using haste gear with af body, haidate, turban, swift, fuma kahyan, senjui/perdu. I think he was full merit.


I started to parse after 50 mobs and we were using meat (kabob for me). It was at puk camp and we were alone, we got chain 110+ and lost it when i died. The brd was doing march & minuet but had to do double paeon a few time because rdm was low mp (my fault) and convert not up.

http://gabyoman.free.fr/ffxi/parse.JPG

the full parse is here: http://gabyoman.free.fr/ffxi/09-01-2007.html

Considering the data, i would say nin still perform well but sam was subject to a radical change. I don't get numbers as high as ryko nor such a big difference between members. It was my first time over chain 100 and the first time over chain 18 with my sam <3

[DrObvious]

Percentage of damage can't tell us the distribution of kill shots, because the person doing the least damage may feasibly be holding their tp till the end and getting a disproportionate number. This mimics reality where a lot of people do not use their tp immediately.

I'm not arguing that haste gear isn't worth it, because that would be stupid. Of course all premier melees have a lot of haste. I'm arguing that missing that last piece of haste gear might not even make a difference at all. Full 25% haste is not taking off 3 seconds either, and most people don't have that anyway. By the way, I'm not trying to take the side that 5% haste isn't better than 2.5% triple attack for tp, that's a losing argument. Just that this issue has come up before with "zomg you don't have dusk feet you gimp" threads, and the recommendation of blitz ring, whose return seems very questionable unless you're drk zerging.

uh what? 3 seconds is 25% of 12 seconds, which last I checked is only ~2 swings unhasted for most 2handers.

are you seriously claiming that mobs die faster than 12 seconds?

(for the other example, assuming 5 seconds per swing, 300 delay) you would be hitting swing #20 at 57 seconds instead of 60 seconds with a whole 5% haste

Ok, that was my mistake, I thought he was saying each swing would be 3 seconds faster, not total time. My fault for skimming. Anyway, my post that you responded to didn't advocate not using any haste gear (bolded for emphasis). I thought it was clear that the context pertained only to the final piece of haste gear, I apologize if it wasn't.

remember, you have more haste than your gear. minimally you should have 15% from the spell and ideally you have either 11 or 20% from march. so you're not discussing 20 or 23%. you're potentially discussing 55% or 58% which is a *huge* difference.

Let's use a realworld example then: perdu sickle drk, with turban, haste hands, swift belt, homam legs, and, unfortunately, no haste feet. 1 march + spell. Using the gear value rather than actual value. 5+3+4+3+11+15 = 41%. 51% with hasso on fulltime. 501*.49 = 245. Dusk feet would give 53% haste and 235 delay. If it dies on the 7th swing with the first setup, that will be 28.5 seconds, 6th swing 24.5 seconds. With the second setup, 23.5 seconds for 6 swings, 27.4 seconds for 7 swings, 31.3 seconds for an 8th swing. If it dies in less than 27 seconds, as you used in your example, neither setup gets a 7th hit, and you potentially kill 1.0 second faster.

My counter argument to that is, "who cares?" So you might kill 1 second faster? If you don't gain an extra swing, you don't gain anything worth talking about. Nevermind that people were jumping on the haste train before you stopped needing accuracy, attack/acc boots were great if your acc was not capped, dare I say equivalent to something like dusk feet. If you want to win the parse, haste is even better now since people are averaging close to 200 a swing, so there's really nothing to argue about anymore, everyone uses 2h weapons, everyone should try to stack haste(I still hold out on whether blitz ring is worth it).

With dual wield, that last piece of haste (on feet) was not as big a difference as people made it out to be. That's pretty much what I was getting at.

[Khrno]

This is a parse of 2 AH-SAM/WARs, DRK/SAM, COR, BRD, RDM.


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f174/spd64/parse1.jpg

Hideka: Soboro/JSE body, ws equip macro.
Khalu: Hagun/Hauby, ws equip macro.
Khrno: Algol/Adaberk/14% Haste, ws equip macro.
Iingaate: The COR, which I forgot to select the R.att field on.

Buffs: Chaos Roll, Samurai Roll, Minuet, March. Mix of Hasso and Seigan since SAMs were voking and i was getting hate after WS.

Note: I died once due to Firespit, didn't stop the parser. And I don't know how to make the total % of damage to show in the report.


Just as a thought, their performance wasn't as i was expecting, and I'm sure any above average WAR, MNK, NIN, THF (maybe), would do better. So I don't see how any AH-SAM or 2-handed can really perform better than anyjob well geared.

[Duwie]

78% acc and 886avrg ws with hagun? I dont think those sams are a good enough benchmark to draw any conclusions from.


speaking of brd/cor pts, what are people using now? I like fighters/chaos + double march.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

78% acc and 886avrg ws with hagun? I dont think those sams are a good enough benchmark to draw any conclusions from.

....and this is why we call them AH-<job>. See, as much as people like to grossly exaggerate all these claims, fact of the matter is, AH-<melee> still fucking sucks even after 2h upgrade.

[Plow]

78% acc and 886avrg ws with hagun? I dont think those sams are a good enough benchmark to draw any conclusions from.

....and this is why we call them AH-<job>. See, as much as people like to grossly exaggerate all these claims, fact of the matter is, AH-<melee> still fucking sucks even after 2h upgrade.

That kinda depends, my drk is pretty much "AH", it was fairly well geared around 2 years ago and is still nearly identical to then. But, for example, I had a pt doing easily 20k/hr the other day with me drk/sam, a drk/thf, a 74 drg/sam, a decently geared but not great nin, a rdm and a smn on Colibri.

Basically it's made it so that even with crap gear if you have people that know what they're doing and a decent camp you can still get some pretty decent exp.

I see nothing wrong with that.

SAM doing same melee dmg as everyone else while wsing for same amount as everyone else but twice as often may be a bit much, but really who freaking cares. It certainly isn't hurting me to have my sam friends destroy shit. 4 man tenzen with drk/sam sam/war rdm/whm and rdm/blm with me tanking as "ah" drk is pretty much ftw.

[Tej]

People are probably gonna give me shit for posting the same thing on Allah, KI and here, but i was just looking for some different parses/feedback that related to this. So I apoligize ahead of time if you read this already.

Well after taking way too much dmg /war lately. I switched to /nin to try it out, and it ended up being way better than i thought it would ever be. It is fine leaving Hasso up 100% of the time, even for casting Utsusemi. With all the haste and stuff the recasts werent bad. Ni can still be casted between attacks and for Ichi i'd just Third Eye > Ichi to get it off. Another thing I also found out today that Sam/Nin with Hasso full time is better than Sam/War with Seigan full time... which was something i really wanted to figure out.

Parse #1:
JP invite last night. Nyzul isle bhaflau thickets, Mamool camp. 31k/hour
Cor/whm, Brd/nin, Rdm/whm
Finaltatsuya- Sam/Nin, Soboro, Haub+1, 6-hit, 19% Haste+Hasso, Speed belt, ect.
Tej- Sam/Nin, Soboro, Haub+1, No 6-hit, 20% Haste+Hasso.
Nary- Sam/War, Soboro, Haub+1, 6-Hit, 19% Haste + Seigan, Speed belt, Toreador's, ect.

-Nary was using amazing food, Arrabbiato. Don't know as Final was using. I was using Coeurl subs bc i thought we were going to fight colibri and only had that and 50 mithkabobs lol. No one had Justice torque.
-Rolls were Sam Roll, Corsair's Roll, Minuet, March for the majority of the time. Everyone had Haste on 100% of the time, Rdm was awesome.
-Sam roll gave me a 6 hit, possibly gave them a 5 hit, not sure.
After 1hour and 31k XP gained, the Parse was:
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1...mcorbrdtx6.gif


Parse#2:
Same setup, except Finaltatsuya was replaced with a Drk/Nin Spaik. (Very good gear as well, using scythe)
Songs were now Chaos Roll, Corsair's Roll, Minuet, March... I no longer had a 6hit, Nary did.
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1...mcorbrdmg1.gif


Overall, i think these parses are very good evidence that Soboro Sam/nin spam may be the best setup for Sam in meripo now. Everyone was going all out for the parse it seemed, engaging fast, religiously WS'ing at 100%.

This is also with Soboro only. So it comes down to 10acc/10str/10atk/10Haste vs +25% Atk for 3 min (Since DA doesnt do much for soboro). Seems kidna obvious to me, but i dunno.

On a side note, I would assume that /war + Seigan would win out for the Hagun/Onimaru/Amano users, since DA plays much more of a factor in those than it does with a Soboro.

Anyone else have similar parses/experiences?

[Amele]

yes. at 66 my soboro sam/nin needs seigan 50% of the time anyway so far (Although this might also be bad tanks) this might be improved with players willing to haste to me more consistently.

it lets me be more comfortable about how much damage I'm taking but doesn't really let me dish more damage I don't think (since I spend alot of time in seigan anyway).

in other news, I was able to tank for the party when the ninja dc'd last night, by making sure to end each previous fight with TP for an opening ws.

I'd show a parse but forgot to export before closing, and opening the dump didn't seem to provide any data.

[hexagram23]

Are these DVS parses? Because last I checked they didn't track Drain/Drain2 damage, making them inaccurate whenever a DRK is in party. Unless the DRK never casts, which is sort of stupid, since Drain+Drain2 is a nice 600 or so damage together.

[Khrno]

Are these DVS parses? Because last I checked they didn't track Drain/Drain2 damage, making them inaccurate whenever a DRK is in party. Unless the DRK never casts, which is sort of stupid, since Drain+Drain2 is a nice 600 or so damage together.

Indeed, DVS doesn't track Drains, Dread Spikes or weapons addeded damage such as Algol's Fire effect.

That makes it certainly inaccurate, but not results-breaking, you can always give and take 5k, depending on how much you cast/long you fight.

[hexagram23]

Are these DVS parses? Because last I checked they didn't track Drain/Drain2 damage, making them inaccurate whenever a DRK is in party. Unless the DRK never casts, which is sort of stupid, since Drain+Drain2 is a nice 600 or so damage together.

Indeed, DVS doesn't track Drains, Dread Spikes or weapons addeded damage such as Algol's Fire effect.

That makes it certainly inaccurate, but not results-breaking, you can always give and take 5k, depending on how much you cast/long you fight.

Nah, I'd say it makes it extremely inaccurate depending on how often you cast those spells. Let's say Drain does 250....Drain 2 does 350....this isn't even the most these spells can do. That's 600 potential damage every time these spells are up. Let's say you fight 50 mobs, cast Drain for 25 of those....that right there is 6250 damage, alone. And I dunno about you but I cast Drain way more than 50% of the time.

Or, counting Drain 2, let's say it does 350, and you cast that for 25 fights. That's another 8750 damage....added together that is about 15,000 damage the parser didn't record. Even taking into consideration resists, etc. let's say it's 12,000 damage. That's a massive amount of damage for a parser to ignore.

No wonder the DRK Beckwin or whoever got raped by Ryko....he casted for a total of 700ish damage.