Current Known Issues (Aug. 30)

[Talisien]

How can you say this with a straight face? Emphasis my own. Drgs were concerned about getting to PLAY, the party was concerned with inviting such a gimpy DD, and you monks are the ones obsessed with your "bestest damage".

Job change button is there for a reason. If you want to play the job with the highest merit DD, play the job with the highest merit DD instead of bitching that your job which has utility that is intended (but fails) to offset their weakness in merit should also have highest merit DD.

I'm a blm dude, I just like playing in a game that actually lets people play, not sit in their mog house.

And not to continue our previous argument, but you're not allowed to say "My specialty is earning Experience Points, you can't be as good at that and stay balanced!" when the XP grind is the game's most ubiquitous activity. Everyone should be allowed to XP, because being allowed to XP equates effectively to being allowed to play the game. Drgs could still craft and go to HNMs pre-patch.

Aurik is/threatened QUITTING the game because you might not parse the highest anymore, so high in fact that other jobs wouldn't be CONSIDERED for your role in a party.

Nope, because SE repeatedly shows how utter crap they are at managing the game. Putting words in my mouth is probably the fastest way to get on my shit list, so I suggest you get it right or keep your trap shut.

Your blog showed your concerns about the damage, my apologies if you had other motives, but your posts here make it clear your primarily concerned with the dominance of Monks in merit PTs.

Look at the parses that are trickling in with agonizingly slow speed.
The only good parse so far has Samurai at 35% stronger without taking advantage of buffed up dex-acc ratio or buffed weaponskills.

I was looking at the most recent parse from the Parse thread which showed a War/Nin beating a Sam/war consistently, and crushing a Drk/nin.

[ringthree]

Job change button is there for a reason. If you want to play the job with the highest merit DD, play the job with the highest merit DD instead of bitching that your job which has utility that is intended (but fails) to offset their weakness in merit should also have highest merit DD.

Well, if you are dead set on being the highest merit DD job, why not listen to your own advice and job change>samurai?

Sam 7>14 since the patch. Doesn't change the fact that SE proved to everyone that they're a bunch of bungling idiots.

God, you sound like an 8 year old. Do you even comprehend the complexity of programming a game of this magnitude? Mistakes are going to happen, and they have already said they are going to fix it.

At this point your are crying because you lost two days of merit party dominance.

[RKenshin]

Man I can't believe how much so many people's IQ has dropped after this update.

People are pointing out DRG's abilities like Jump/High Jump/Healing Breath as if they're some amazing god-send that got them PTs (before the patch). Meanwhile MNKs are saying that all of their abilities and JAs are nothing special and they never had any roll outside of merit PTs (so all 75 MNKs never did anything other than exp?). Could you imagine how hilarious it would be if someone tried to say all this crap before the patch? Every person would be laughed at.

"Hey I'm a DRG, invite me, because I can High Jump/Super Jump every 2-5m to lose hate and help save MP with Healing Breath!!" Because those were always the reasons they were invited to a PT right?

"Hey I'm a MNK, I have Focus/Chakra/Counterstance/Dodge and refuse to use any of them in a merit PT or any other situation because I believe they're not helpful or unique to my job." I'd boot the MNK that refused to use those abilities, so accept the fact already it IS part of your job and it IS unique to performing your roll.

And fuck someone slap the next person that suggests a gimpy AH DRG/DRK/SAM can bury a decked out MNK or Rid WAR. It is incredibly obvious by recent results that it is not the case at all, and if you believe otherwise then you need to go and find out for yourself or stop whining until more results are posted. Thus far, as the parse thread as suggested, it's not anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be.

And I don't know what kind of players people exp with but I had little trouble going MNK/WAR to the right exp PTs, as did a lot of people according to a recent thread on the topic. So why did that suddenly change? Especially considering the fact that mobs will die a lot faster than before since everyone is buffed up, which is the only real problem about /WAR (dealing with long fights).

In my mind, MNK and WARs should be at the top of the damage world. Mind you, not by the insane amount they were before, but at least a decent amount...

If you played any other FF games this would never be the case. Typically DRK is always always always at the top of the damage world, along with jobs like SAM, DRG, RNG, and MNK on about equal footing next to/behind it. WAR is rarely ever at the top as they're the 'little bit of everything' job that doesn't necessarily excel past other jobs in any particular roll, just like RDM is never at the top of the white magic or black magic world (but are for enfeebling).

[shirak]

The only good parse so far has Samurai at 35% stronger without taking advantage of buffed up dex-acc ratio or buffed weaponskills.

Ruk's parse? Comeon get real... lets have some down to earth results. And what you say defeats all the moaning people are making: Only one parse and thats with a relic gkatana.. where's the experimental repetitions before we make our conclusions?

Sam 7>14 since the patch

Gogo bandwagon!

I'll reserve my judgement whether the problem is fixed until after they patch it, thank you very much.

You're not much on reserve so I'll take that with a grain of salt. btw, I'm afraid you're not the judge here, that'd be SE.

[LD]

Dude... regardless of what information/opinions you, or aurik, or anyone wants to put behind it... a Wyvern does make DRG unique. If they didn't have one, they'd just be a DRK in Blue armor with shittier damage.

Pretty much. If DRG focuses on it's weapon, it's a DRK without the 3 extra att bonuses and Souleater. Without it's Wyverns and Jumps, it's gunan be weaker than something. If a THF can be defined by two 50-60 second abilities, then I don't see why a DRG can't be defined by a 30-45 second ability, a 75-90 second ability, and a persistent 20 minute ability that attacks, WSs, and heals. Dividing up the Wyvern's abilities by subjob was a bad idea to begin with. The job should have always been based more heavily on its unique attributes, which is probably why SE gave DRG that 2nd acc bonus, to more easily drop accuracy for att or other bonuses.

How can you say this with a straight face? Emphasis my own. Drgs were concerned about getting to PLAY, the party was concerned with inviting such a gimpy DD, and you monks are the ones obsessed with your "bestest damage".

Because I believe it? Yes, you were concerned about getting to play. You convinced yourselves the only way to do that was with a straight damage increase that equaled the power of MNKs. So you wanted more damage.

Just because you can't follow the steps of logic doesn't mean I can't. The proof is in the pudding; you want your damage so you can play, but you can't believe improving Jumps and Wyvern could actually help do the same thing. You reject it so much, but it is possible, no probable. I even made an example of how it would work, you still reject it just because you don't think it could be done and for what reason? Because you just resigned yourselves to being a guy with a pole? What keeps you attacked to this job then? If you say it isn't unique, why not trade up? To be clear, I'm not saying that because I believe some tripe like "you should just play the strongest job." I'm saying it because there's nothing to really draw you to DRG except a a line of polygons. So why can't DRG actually be unique? Why can't your damage be done in other ways, like Thief or Samurai? Just because you say so and I'm not a Dragoon?

[shirak]

Thank you Ruk for injecting some sense into these discussions.

[Nameless]

Man I can't believe how much so many people's IQ has dropped after this update.

People are pointing out DRG's abilities like Jump/High Jump/Healing Breath as if they're some amazing god-send that got them PTs (before the patch). Meanwhile MNKs are saying that all of their abilities and JAs are nothing special and they never had any roll outside of merit PTs (so all 75 MNKs never did anything other than exp?). Could you imagine how hilarious it would be if someone tried to say all this crap before the patch? Every person would be laughed at.

"Hey I'm a DRG, invite me, because I can High Jump/Super Jump every 2-5m to lose hate and help save MP with Healing Breath!!" Because those were always the reasons they were invited to a PT right?

"Hey I'm a MNK, I have Focus/Chakra/Counterstance/Dodge and refuse to use any of them in a merit PT or any other situation because I believe they're not helpful or unique to my job." I'd boot the MNK that refused to use those abilities, so accept the fact already it IS part of your job and it IS unique to performing your roll.

And fuck someone slap the next person that suggests a gimpy AH DRG/DRK/SAM can bury a decked out MNK or Rid WAR. It is incredibly obvious by recent results that it is not the case at all, and if you believe otherwise then you need to go and find out for yourself or stop whining until more results are posted. Thus far, as the parse thread as suggested, it's not anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be.

And I don't know what kind of players people exp with but I had little trouble going MNK/WAR to the right exp PTs, as did a lot of people according to a recent thread on the topic. So why did that suddenly change? Especially considering the fact that mobs will die a lot faster than before since everyone is buffed up, which is the only real problem about /WAR (dealing with long fights).

In my mind, MNK and WARs should be at the top of the damage world. Mind you, not by the insane amount they were before, but at least a decent amount...

If you played any other FF games this would never be the case. Typically DRK is always always always at the top of the damage world, along with jobs like SAM, DRG, RNG, and MNK on about equal footing next to/behind it. WAR is rarely ever at the top as they're the 'little bit of everything' job that doesn't necessarily excel past other jobs in any particular roll, just like RDM is never at the top of the white magic or black magic world (but are for enfeebling).

Man, I can't put it any better than you. Anyone saying Mnk should be top melee doesn't know what mnk can do outside of the DD. To be able to tank LCB the best is something that no Sam, Drk, Drg or even War can do. For the single example of that, Mnk shouldn't be the best melee.

[aurik]

How can you say this with a straight face? Emphasis my own. Drgs were concerned about getting to PLAY, the party was concerned with inviting such a gimpy DD, and you monks are the ones obsessed with your "bestest damage".

Job change button is there for a reason. If you want to play the job with the highest merit DD, play the job with the highest merit DD instead of bitching that your job which has utility that is intended (but fails) to offset their weakness in merit should also have highest merit DD.

I'm a blm dude, I just like playing in a game that actually lets people play, not sit in their mog house.

And not to continue our previous argument, but you're not allowed to say "My specialty is earning Experience Points, you can't be as good at that and stay balanced!" when the XP grind is the game's most ubiquitous activity. Everyone should be allowed to XP, because being allowed to XP equates effectively to being allowed to play the game. Drgs could still craft and go to HNMs pre-patch.

The merit grind is ubiquitous because players make it so. There are a ton of things to do in this game which aren't merits. Monks aren't anything special in non-merit XP; DRG pre-patch was actually a great DD in XP from 1-50, but DRGs are so happy to forget that now.

Choosing to do things with a sub-optimal job is a personal choice, and SE should avoid patching things so that people who deliberately choose a crappy job for something have it easier than people who deliberately choose one that fits better. What's next, patches so that blu/whm rivals whm-main in HNM healing?

I was looking at the most recent parse from the Parse thread which showed a War/Nin beating a Sam/war consistently, and crushing a Drk/nin.

Bad comparison, we don't know how much better the war/nin was pre-patch. Ruke and Lhexh's controlled parse is a much better demonstration of just how much 2h jobs have been improved.

[aurik]

Job change button is there for a reason. If you want to play the job with the highest merit DD, play the job with the highest merit DD instead of bitching that your job which has utility that is intended (but fails) to offset their weakness in merit should also have highest merit DD.

Well, if you are dead set on being the highest merit DD job, why not listen to your own advice and job change>samurai?

Sam 7>14 since the patch. Doesn't change the fact that SE proved to everyone that they're a bunch of bungling idiots.

God, you sound like an 8 year old. Do you even comprehend the complexity of programming a game of this magnitude? Mistakes are going to happen, and they have already said they are going to fix it.

At this point your are crying because you lost two days of merit party dominance.

Being a game developer as a career, yes I do have some idea the complexity of programming a game of this magnitude, and SE continues to shock me with their ineptitude.

[LD]

Man I can't believe how much so many people's IQ has dropped after this update.

People are pointing out DRG's abilities like Jump/High Jump/Healing Breath as if they're some amazing god-send that got them PTs (before the patch). Meanwhile MNKs are saying that all of their abilities and JAs are nothing special and they never had any roll outside of merit PTs (so all 75 MNKs never did anything other than exp?). Could you imagine how hilarious it would be if someone tried to say all this crap before the patch? Every person would be laughed at.

"Hey I'm a DRG, invite me, because I can High Jump/Super Jump every 2-5m to lose hate and help save MP with Healing Breath!!" Because those were always the reasons they were invited to a PT right?

"Hey I'm a MNK, I have Focus/Chakra/Counterstance/Dodge and refuse to use any of them in a merit PT or any other situation because I believe they're not helpful or unique to my job." I'd boot the MNK that refused to use those abilities, so accept the fact already it IS part of your job and it IS unique to performing your roll.

And fuck someone slap the next person that suggests a gimpy AH DRG/DRK/SAM can bury a decked out MNK or Rid WAR. It is incredibly obvious by recent results that it is not the case at all, and if you believe otherwise then you need to go and find out for yourself or stop whining until more results are posted. Thus far, as the parse thread as suggested, it's not anywhere near as bad as people are making it out to be.

And I don't know what kind of players people exp with but I had little trouble going MNK/WAR to the right exp PTs, as did a lot of people according to a recent thread on the topic. So why did that suddenly change? Especially considering the fact that mobs will die a lot faster than before since everyone is buffed up, which is the only real problem about /WAR (dealing with long fights).

In my mind, MNK and WARs should be at the top of the damage world. Mind you, not by the insane amount they were before, but at least a decent amount...

If you played any other FF games this would never be the case. Typically DRK is always always always at the top of the damage world, along with jobs like SAM, DRG, RNG, and MNK on about equal footing next to/behind it. WAR is rarely ever at the top as they're the 'little bit of everything' job that doesn't necessarily excel past other jobs in any particular roll, just like RDM is never at the top of the white magic or black magic world (but are for enfeebling).

You're using extremes as bad as the rest of these people, ruke.
DRG's unique qualities should be improved, no one was saying they're fine the way they are and Penance and SB mean shit on most things. The rest of that is fluff that isn't even relevant to the topic at hand.

[aurik]

Man I can't believe how much so many people's IQ has dropped after this update.

I'd think of all people, you'd be able to read and digest what I've been saying, but your post is just a whoosh of epic size.

People are pointing out DRG's abilities like Jump/High Jump/Healing Breath as if they're some amazing god-send that got them PTs (before the patch).

Not what we've been saying.

Meanwhile MNKs are saying that all of their abilities and JAs are nothing special and they never had any roll outside of merit PTs (so all 75 MNKs never did anything other than exp?).

Not what we've been saying.

And fuck someone slap the next person that suggests a gimpy AH DRG/DRK/SAM can bury a decked out MNK or Rid WAR.

Not what we've been saying.


Let me know when you respond to the stuff I've actually been saying.

[Talisien]

Just because you can't follow the steps of logic doesn't mean I can't. The proof is in the pudding; you want your damage so you can play, but you can't believe improving Jumps and Wyvern could actually help do the same thing. You reject it so much, but it is possible, no probable. I even made an example of how it would work, you still reject it just because you don't think it could be done and for what reason? Because you just resigned yourselves to being a guy with a pole? What keeps you attacked to this job then? If you say it isn't unique, why not trade up? To be clear, I'm not saying that because I believe some tripe like "you should just play the strongest job." I'm saying it because there's nothing to really draw you to DRG except a a line of polygons. So why can't DRG actually be unique? Why can't your damage be done in other ways, like Thief or Samurai? Just because you say so and I'm not a Dragoon?

LD I'm not a Dragoon. Actually my Dragoon is level 1.

They changed the 2H formula rather than upping the utility of the Wyvern because it was both easier to do, and affected other jobs that were in need of balancing as well. The Mnk / War/nin problem was not felt simply by Dragoons, but by GS pallys (heh), Darks, Samurais, GA Warriors, etc. This patch fixed the disparity between every melee that was made better by subbing nin and using 2 weapons, and the melee that were meant to play wielding a huge honking two-handed weapon.

I think your idea does have merit and I respect the Utility DD aspect of Dragoons, I really do. In reality, it just wasn't enough, and it would've taken months of careful tuning/balancing and retuning to get this hybrid/utility Dragoon functioning correctly. It would've really been a whole new job, as it stands Dragoon just turned into what it was (probably) meant to be -- a functioning Damage class.

[aurik]

Man, I can't put it any better than you. Anyone saying Mnk should be top melee doesn't know what mnk can do outside of the DD. To be able to tank LCB the best is something that no Sam, Drk, Drg or even War can do. For the single example of that, Mnk shouldn't be the best melee.

Samurai is the best LBC tank now.

[Attila]

Choosing to do things with a sub-optimal job is a personal choice, and SE should avoid patching things so that people who deliberately choose a crappy job for something have it easier than people who deliberately choose one that fits better. What's next, patches so that blu/whm rivals whm-main in HNM healing?

this just in, the answer is to delete DRG! It's crappy, so why keep it around?

[LD]

I think your idea does have merit and I respect the Utility DD aspect of Dragoons, I really do. In reality, it just wasn't enough, and it would've taken months of careful tuning/balancing and retuning to get this hybrid/utility Dragoon functioning correctly. It would've really been a whole new job, as it stands Dragoon just turned into what it was (probably) meant to be -- a functioning Damage class.

There is absolutely no reason in my mind as to why that can't be changed.

[RKenshin]

Look at the parses that are trickling in with agonizingly slow speed.
The only good parse so far has Samurai at 35% stronger without taking advantage of buffed up dex-acc ratio or buffed weaponskills.

Oh come on now, sighting a 100% equipped/merited relic SAM as proof of measuring anything in the grand scheme of 2h weapons vs other people now is just ridiculous.

And I do benefit from the WS enhancement, where has everyone been? In the WS equation thread it was said that Gekko/Yuki/Kasha all follow basically the same exact modifiers as before, and the primary increase in WS damage has come from the changes to the 2h weapon enhancements and new PDIF/etc. The same exact fact follows for Kaiten.

It makes perfect sense as well. I would average ~1k with Kaiten before patch, and now I average ~1.5k. Decked out SAMs would average ~800 with GYK before patch and now they average about 1200-1300 after. Both WS got about a 50% increase and both are still about evenly spaced out.

And anyone with the best possible gear they could have + max merits + a 2h relic could hit the accuracy cap consistantly before hand. Even without relic it was possible to get close. So you're not going to see any different results from them as well.

[Vedder]

Just because you can't follow the steps of logic doesn't mean I can't. The proof is in the pudding; you want your damage so you can play, but you can't believe improving Jumps and Wyvern could actually help do the same thing. You reject it so much, but it is possible, no probable. I even made an example of how it would work, you still reject it just because you don't think it could be done and for what reason? Because you just resigned yourselves to being a guy with a pole? What keeps you attacked to this job then? If you say it isn't unique, why not trade up? To be clear, I'm not saying that because I believe some tripe like "you should just play the strongest job." I'm saying it because there's nothing to really draw you to DRG except a a line of polygons. So why can't DRG actually be unique? Why can't your damage be done in other ways, like Thief or Samurai? Just because you say so and I'm not a Dragoon?

LD I'm not a Dragoon. Actually my Dragoon is level 1.

They changed the 2H formula rather than upping the utility of the Wyvern because it was both easier to do, and affected other jobs that were in need of balancing as well. The Mnk / War/nin problem was not felt simply by Dragoons, but by GS pallys (heh), Darks, Samurais, GA Warriors, etc. This patch fixed the disparity between every melee that was made better by subbing nin and using 2 weapons, and the melee that were meant to play wielding a huge honking two-handed weapon.

I think your idea does have merit and I respect the Utility DD aspect of Dragoons, I really do. In reality, it just wasn't enough, and it would've taken months of careful tuning/balancing and retuning to get this hybrid/utility Dragoon functioning correctly. It would've really been a whole new job, as it stands Dragoon just turned into what it was (probably) meant to be -- a functioning Damage class.

This patch didn't fix shit... it changed shit.

The disparity you cite just got replaced by another one.

[LD]

Yes, but this should fix that.

I don't want anyone to be weak, I want us all to be special.
I'm fine with not being as powerful defensively if it means that other jobs can be just as powerful in different ways.

[Talisien]

This patch didn't fix shit... it changed shit.

The disparity you cite just got replaced by another one.

Really? really? Do you seriously believe you'll start seeing Monks begging Samurais for parties?

Do you really imagine that right now there is a party of RDM, BRD, War, Sam, Drg that is staring at a /sea of MNK, MNK, BST, MNK and thinking "God, if only a Dragoon would pop, we need a DD!"

[Vedder]

Yes, but this should fix that.

I don't want anyone to be weak, I want us all to be special.
I'm fine with not being as powerful defensively if it means that other jobs can be just as powerful in different ways.

Ahh... refreshing.

People that disagree with this probably think White Male Americans > all.