Kuno's Guide to Making an Expansion

[Stolin]

Of course it's upto the player, and a large majority want them. I don't know about you but going through the entire of CoP we kept going "oh I bet this'll be the patch that puts Abjurations on ____" or "I bet Abjurations will drop from _____!", and then the same thing happened in ToAU to some extent, since everyones hope for important fixes were completely shattered.

The problem is that the people want either an easier way to get said gear (which SE said they will not do) or something better. Expecting people to camp a 3 year old monster every day for said 3 years is not a viable option for a healthy game.

Well the point I was trying to make was that its not really SE's fault people care about that equipment so much, because all other parts of the game are accessible without those items.

Now if having kings gear to progress further into the end game was necessity then I'd have a major problem.

[Veli]

They should just give the current relic weapons a boost like add 6-10 damage/lower delay and then they can make new weapons that trump the current weapons. You know this game has poor design when a MNK or WAR that hasn't played in 2-3years still has the best gear when they log in today. This game needs new life really.. It has been the same hot items for last 3 years with a couple of new items that are just about the same as the old ones.

[Krandor]

Well the point I was trying to make was that its not really SE's fault people care about that equipment so much, because all other parts of the game are accessible without those items.

Now if having kings gear to progress further into the end game was necessity then I'd have a major problem.

Aside from cybering or pvp (and we know how that goes in FFXI), what else is there to do in an MMORPG then further gear your character or those of your friends?

As for the comments above about gear becoming outdated, that's exactly what drives progression. No one in their right mind can say that having to clear 3-4 year old content to still get some of the best gear in the game is at all a good design.

[Tajin]

Aside from cybering or pvp (and we know how that goes in FFXI), what else is there to do in an MMORPG then further gear your character or those of your friends?

Chocobo Racing! :D

oh wait...

[Stolin]

Aside from cybering or pvp (and we know how that goes in FFXI), what else is there to do in an MMORPG then further gear your character or those of your friends?

I am probably in the minority here, but I'm one of those people who can kill something once and be content to know I've killed it. The high I used to get from obtaining a rare item is long gone.

[Krandor]

Aside from cybering or pvp (and we know how that goes in FFXI), what else is there to do in an MMORPG then further gear your character or those of your friends?

Chocobo Racing! :D

oh wait...

I believe the answer to that question is in the number (and length) of threads I see on the first 2 pages pertaining to Chocobo racing

[Sekkite]

Of course it's upto the player, and a large majority want them. I don't know about you but going through the entire of CoP we kept going "oh I bet this'll be the patch that puts Abjurations on ____" or "I bet Abjurations will drop from _____!", and then the same thing happened in ToAU to some extent, since everyones hope for important fixes were completely shattered.

The problem is that the people want either an easier way to get said gear (which SE said they will not do) or something better. Expecting people to camp a 3 year old monster every day for said 3 years is not a viable option for a healthy game.

Well the point I was trying to make was that its not really SE's fault people care about that equipment so much, because all other parts of the game are accessible without those items.

Now if having kings gear to progress further into the end game was necessity then I'd have a major problem.

You must work for SE with that logic.

The other parts of the game are fluff without any character progression. New content only lasts so long (read: weeks) before the novelty wears off and progression is needed to sustain interest and to keep the game enjoyable.

[Lordender]

I hope the next expansion has way more to do at the start than ToAU did, I mean you could complete all of the intial content in a few days. I felt kinda bored at the start of ToAU because of how fast we ran through the content. I want to see HNM's added that completely change the way we're used to fighting them. I want new HNM's that are extremely hard to where small man groups get fucking pwned in the face if they try to hold it.

[Stolin]

You must work for SE with that logic.

The other parts of the game are fluff without any character progression. New content only lasts so long (read: weeks) before the novelty wears off and progression is needed to sustain interest and to keep the game enjoyable.

There is character progression in this game without gear progression. The only character progression in this game is access to end game areas through each expansion's missions and leveling new jobs.

Like I pointed out earlier this game has no gear progression(meaning you don't need any end game equipment to do other end game activities)-it never has, and if you read Bercus's interviews with SE's PR team it sounds like they want it that way.

Unfortunately for us it takes them a long time to work out new content, and since you're obviously playing the game they must be doing something right to keep your interest.

[Krandor]

You must work for SE with that logic.

The other parts of the game are fluff without any character progression. New content only lasts so long (read: weeks) before the novelty wears off and progression is needed to sustain interest and to keep the game enjoyable.

There is character progression in this game without gear progression. The only character progression in this game is access to end game areas through each expansion's missions and leveling new jobs.

Like I pointed out earlier this game has no gear progression(meaning you don't need any end game equipment to do other end game activities)-it never has, and if you read Bercus's interviews with SE's PR team it sounds like they want it that way.

Unfortunately for us it takes them a long time to work out new content, and since you're obviously playing the game they must be doing something right to keep your interest.

I'm pretty sure Sekkite quit for WoW.

[Celebrindor]

I personally saw nothing wrong with the mission and storyling content of Chains of Promathia. There was a sense of accomplishment when I picked up my Tamas Ring in Upper Jeuno unlike anything else I've experienced in the game.

I did the missions/story of RotZ in a weekend, while also leveling up NIN subjob and having a Dynamis Run. Took me about 8 hours.

Having Sea STILL means something, and it meant even more 6-8 months ago, and even more than that a year+ ago. Having Sky is in reality no better than turning the game on. Yes, the endgame content of RotZ still completely blows everything out of the water that has been released since in terms of HNM fights, instanced battlefields (although in terms of fun, time committment and consistent rewards, Limbus is the clear winner over Dynamis), and gear introduced. CoP Wyrms are a great title to carry around, but outside of Gaiters that's about it.

I personally have no problem if some of the game is simply "too difficult" for the majority of players to reach the endgame of a specific expansion. Its not like you were required to have Sea access in order to reach Aht Urghan, or you had to have Sky in order to enter Promyvion. I would like to see something developed in an expansion at some point that simply says "yes, we know its hard, but 15% of the playerbase has completed the content released so far for this expansion, and we only ever intended for 25% of the playerbase to actually access the entire content of this expansion". Face it, the game's getting crowded at endgame and taking the top 25% of the endgame playerbase onward to bigger and better things and leaving the other 75% behind at Kings is not a bad thing. Hell, I don't even think I'd be in that top 25%, but I'd wager it would help alleviate camps if all of a sudden an extremely challenging progression to endgame in WotG revealed "full strength" Abjuration gear from new HNMs that most of the players simply couldn't reach, provided more challenging fights, and had drops where the equivalent to an Aquarian Body had MP+50 with no HP penalty, Auto-Refresh @2MP/tic instead of one, and was blurple, and the Earthen Body, gave +5 to all key stats already on the Adaberk along with 5% haste. It doesn't diminish the Adaberk and Dalmatica- they still are desired pieces and are quite good. But it might loosen the grip on some camps that have been packed for the past 3 and a half years.

SE has done a respectable job of listening recently, and to be honest the only major flaws that need addressing are Kings camps and AV. Sky is pretty much open terrain now, Sea with 100% virtue drops is much more productive, Assault/Salvage are exactly the kind of system the playerbase clamoured for- its time to trump the Ridill et al, and keep the rarity of the new items preserved due to difficulty of the fight and the challenge to access the area in the first place, not in who has the most recent bot that can claim and not get caught at the same time.

[Sekkite]

There is character progression in this game without gear progression. The only character progression in this game is access to end game areas through each expansion's missions and leveling new jobs.

Like I pointed out earlier this game has no gear progression(meaning you don't need any end game equipment to do other end game activities)-it never has, and if you read Bercus's interviews with SE's PR team it sounds like they want it that way.

Unfortunately for us it takes them a long time to work out new content, and since you're obviously playing the game they must be doing something right to keep your interest.

The only thing comparable to gear progression in the game right now is merit points, and it's pretty obvious how popular that is right now. And you seem to take the term "gear progression" out of context. A better term would be character progression. And yes, I am playing FFXI for a reason, just like I also play WoW for a reason. An MMO will not last without some form of character progression. When that stops, the interest of a large portion of the player base stops along with it.

I'm pretty sure Sekkite quit for WoW.

I'm pretty sure I haven't.

[Krandor]

I'm pretty sure I haven't.

My mistake, I assumed with all the apparent raiding you do in WoW (talking about the WoW BG forums) that you had left FFXI.

[Sekkite]

I'm pretty sure I haven't.

My mistake, I assumed with all the apparent raiding you do in WoW (talking about the WoW BG forums) that you had left FFXI.

I'm one of the oddballs that plays both games. Right now I have pretty much hit the holy grail of WoW raiding (until the next instance is released anyway) doing the top tier end game content in less then 10 hours a week when most people can't do it in over 30 hours a week (well, most people don't even have access to attempt the bosses anyway). So my schedule for WoW raiding is pretty light right now, so I got time to play FFXI.

[Pacha]

I just read Kuno's entire post and it was excellent. As much as I enjoy Berticus' interviews (he also does an excellent job) I wish that there was some way that he or others could get something like Kuno's post directly into the hands of the developers (translated into JP of course). Kuno's post not only outlines the problems from start to finish but also gives rationales and explanations of why these problems need to be fixed.

One of the only things I would change in the post is the portion which discusses what players want in terms of accessibility in an expansion. Missions in an expansion should be very difficult and time consuming and only the best players should be able to reach the end. In my opinion (and I think some share this opinion), after everything is said and done, CoP would be a better all-around expansion than ToA. Fix AV and you have a really solid expansion in CoP. CoP's mission rewards were excellent and there was an amazing sense of accomplishment after the missions were finished and you could finally enter sea. ToA lacked this feeling of accomplishment. ToA missions were incredibly easy. Moreover, the rewards for ToA missions were very lackluster and there was no final zone like sea or sky at the end! This tradition of a final endgame area at the end of an expansion was a stalwart in FFXI expansions and one that almost every player loved. ToA did not deliver with this final zone. There should be zones in the game that are only accessible by the best players, just like there should be gear that is only accessible to the best players. When it all comes down to it, people play MMORGS for the feeling of accomplishment and excitement which only comes from the completion of a difficult fight and the aquisition of a powerful item which significantly improves one's character.

Honestly, SE has improved with their listening skills of late but the lack of item progression in the game is still the biggest problem and plain and simple, it hasn't been fixed. I hope one day that somethink like Kuno's post can be communicated to the developers at SE.

PS: Here are some quick fixes that I think could carried out with ease and would greatly fix the game in the next expansion:

1. Increase the strength of relic weapons so there can be weapon progression. (Relics should always be the strongest weapon in the game for that particular job simply because of absolutely ridiculous time commitment that they require for an individual as well as that individual's friends, unless of course they put in a new relic that is even harder to obtain...).

2. Put in a large number of new big HNM's that drop weapons and armor that are better than what the 3 Zilart Kings drop...I mean come on, can't we fight something new after 3+ years of fafnir...? (maybe add the rest of the elemental wyrms??). These new HNM's will ease the existing HNM camps (200 ppl all trying to claim one mob...are you kidding me?) and provide something new and exciting for old and experienced players to accoplish.

These two things would not be that hard to accomplish with an entire expansion and I still have hope that WOTG could impliment these types of things.

[BRP]

Clash Between the Old and the New – Necessity and Obsoletion

Strongly disagree!

It's not "necessary" or "almost required".

Especially when it comes to NMs and events. More things to do, the better.

EDIT: And gear progression like WoW wouldn't work in FFXI as monsters are not getting harder at a rate to make it work. If you release a neckpiece of "Accuracy+20" people will just skip everything before it and just wear that.

EDIT 2: And that wouldn't be progression.

[Zarath]

I wholeheartedly agree with the fact that there should be a form of obsoleting some of the past gear in vie for better gear in expansions. The fact that people still spend time at HNM camps, and a considerable amount of time sometimes, is really showing SE's want to not make anything obsolete, however it also becomes a major detriment to any attempt to make better gear, if not alternate gear to alleviate the overcamping and overcrowding of the end game scene. I do commend them on their stance on keeping old content current, but how long are we gonna ride the HNM king drop pools for? Another year? 2 years? Forever? There has to be a point in the game where such things should just be dropped for much better systems and equipment.

My next point would be on already established systems and seeing what worked and what didn't with the community.

Salvage offered some alternatives to abjurations, however the system isn't entirely perfect or well thought out, as per Zhal. Remnants and our attempts to figure out what seems to be a futile battle to pop Madames, but at least in the right direction. The fact that it's been months and we're still trying to figure out how the 5th floor madame is popped which nothing more than just wierd strategies that make no sense.

Also comes the fact that Einfailjar became such a joke with it's steep difficulty and lack of reward. What seemed to be the right idea became another failed attempt to appease the causal gamer community.

What I guess I'm saying in a nutshell is the lack of overly complicated systems, as like Zhal. Remnants, and something as unrewarding as Einfailjar should be avoided, is the right kind of mindset that SE really should consider rather than the current trend.

[Fawkes]

Missions in an expansion should be very difficult and time consuming and only the best players should be able to reach the end.

I couldn't disagree more. If you're going to alienate a majority of the playerbase with an expansion, why bother making an expansion at all?

I would guess you're assuming that most people haven't finished CoP because it's too hard, and not because it's a ton of work for very little reward. Especially when compared to RotZ.

Clash Between the Old and the New – Necessity and Obsoletion

Strongly disagree!

It's not "necessary" or "almost required".

Especially when it comes to NMs and events. More things to do, the better.

EDIT: And gear progression like WoW wouldn't work in FFXI as monsters are not getting harder at a rate to make it work. If you release a neckpiece of "Accuracy+20" people will just skip everything before it and just wear that.

EDIT 2: And that wouldn't be progression.

More things to do would be better if each expansion could also add more days to RL weeks, but as it is we have too much already for older things to not go obsolete.

I don't play WoW, so I have no idea what gear progression is like in that. But I assumed people meant something like... instead of a stack of lolmaridleather, make Shura Sune-Ate an ingredient in Usukane Sune-Ate, where old equipment would literally be required to obtain new equipment.

[Spira]

Firstly I would like to say that the OP was very nicely written and very objective in its observations..

I believe that the issue of game balance is one of the bigger questions when it comes to gear progression. Certainly, there is gear progression as you level, but when you reach Lv75, it becomes hard to implement gear progression because the developers explicitly do not want to do something like making new gear that will only make old gear obsolete. Things shouldn't be seen only on 2 dimentional scales, and many of them have good situational uses. However, SE does lack the ability to make newer gear options attractive without making it 'extreme'. This is a problem

When talking about gear progression, events and camping NMs, there is also the need to consider long term and short term. Events such as Dynamis, Limbus, Salvage and Einherjar were designed with the long term rewards in mind although only some of them offered short-term rewards. I believe they wanted to balance out long term rewards to seem 'bigger' and short term rewards to be slightly less satisfying, which works out OK. However for HNMs, most of them are only short-term reward NMs because there is no need to cumulate anything from their reward pool to achieve anything. As such, their gear isn't really designed to appeal... and yet their fights aren't exactly easy.

Job balancing is another thing to consider. A lot of people make it a point to bitch when certain jobs have it too well, or the exact opposite - some even quit because their jobs are unfairly treated. SE has slowly begun to understand this, and also that players don't like their emotions to be toyed with by being given something good, then have it taken from them.

I wanted to say something else but i forgot lol

[Sagacious Sundi]

I want to go back in time to tell SE to release two versions of CoP:

1. RotZ +1 (you'd still have the same areas/basic premise/ENMs/etc., it'd just cater to a similar audience RotZ did, but it won't be as easy as RotZ (currently) or as "hard" as CoP); ENMs could also function more like Assaults with an "empty points" system; actually, merge the next idea with this and also allow the points to come from regular CoP NMs. As a matter of fact, make a points system from each expansion that come from doing events/quests/killing NMs and some of the better rewards come from here, so there is more incentitive (sp) to do less popular quests/NMs/events: Adventure points (original game), Outland points (Zilart), Empty points (Promathia), something/mirror points (Aht Urhgan), and past/war points (Altana).
2. Single-playerfied version of current CoP; story is explored deeper

I'd also give them ideas that came from my own head and certainly not anyone else from the future.